When does Response End and Recovery Begin?

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This week we are talking to Dr. David McEntire one of the thought leaders in the field of emergency management education. David not only is actively teaching emergency management, he was part of the team that laid the groundwork for what emergency management curriculum is today.

Yeah, I do think we should pause and really study and understand the risk, the hazards of the vulnerability and determine what the best step is.

David McIntyre
EM Weekly episode 110, When does Response End and Recovery Begin?

Todd DeVoe:      Hi, welcome to The EM Weekly Show, this is your emergency management podcast. This week we are talking to one of the thought leaders in the area of disaster recovery and generally emergency management. His name is Dr. David McIntyre. I use a lot of David’s books. I was really excited to have him on the show, and before we get into the interview with David, I want to thank all of you for making the show the success that it is, I have made so many friends and connections over the last two years since I’ve been doing this podcast. I can’t believe that we’re rolling into our third year starting this April (2019). Right. And it’s been amazing. It’s been such a journey, and I’m just so honored and humbled to have you guys listening to the interviews and thank you so much for the feedback that I’ve received on Facebook and LinkedIn and, and uh, feel free to reach out to me and I always enjoy having conversations with, with everybody when they, when they reach out. So thank you again for your time and for listening.

Todd DeVoe:      Now under the interview.

Todd DeVoe:      Hey, welcome to EM Weekly and I today I have Dr. David McIntyre with me today and is the author of a couple of books, but one of the books that I use for teaching is the response and recovery book. And well we had a Dr. McIntyre in here today to kind of talk about his history and how he got into emergency management education and a little bit about response recovery, especially with the stuff that’s happening up in California and with a northern California with Paradise. David, welcome to EM Weekly

David McIntyre :              Well Todd, thank you very much. It’s great to be here with you and to also talk to your listeners.

Todd DeVoe:      So emergency management education as gone through had a couple of other people we’ve spoken to has gone through like this really cool evolution and kind of moving out of the sociology into, it’s really its own realm, but how did you get involved with emergency management and emergency manager education?

David McIntyre :              Yeah, well like a lot of people my age, I kind of fell into it by accident. I didn’t really know much about emergency management; I didn’t know there were career opportunities. I did not know you could teach in this area. And so, I kind of just fell into it. Unlike a lot of the students today, they know exactly what they want to go into, and there are degrees in that area and so forth. But I guess growing up; My parents had been involved in international travel. We had exchange students live with us. Uh, we were able to go on vacations and other countries, and so I grew up just really liking foreign travel and those experiences. And so I wanted to go into international relations and Spanish, and that’s what I did for my degree. Decided to go to, um, the University of Denver for graduate school. At that time it was the graduate school of International Studies.

David McIntyre :              And so I wanted to maybe be a diplomat or work for the State Department or something like that. That was kind of my original goal. Well, I started taking classes up there, and I was getting, uh, through my coursework, and I was getting towards my thesis, and I was trying to figure out what I was going to write on, uh, for my, my thesis. And about that time we had an earthquake in California, uh, I believe in the Northridge earthquake. And then there was another one in Japan, the Kobe earthquake in 95. And I started just thinking about those, disasters, you know, these were developed nations. They’re wealthy, they’re rich, they have the technology, they have stable governments, and they were struggling to deal with these disasters. And so I started to ask myself, you know, what would a disaster be liking in a developing nation and how would the international community respond?

David McIntyre :              And this kind of ties back to my interest in global affairs. So I started to study that a little bit and just fell in love with the subject. And along the way, I read work by Thomas Drabek, very famous disaster sociologists. And, um, I found out that he was right there at the University of Denver. And so I had contacted him and ask him if he would be willing to be a mentor for me. Uh, regretfully, at first he said No. He said, I’ve got so many grant projects going on, I’ve got a lot to do. I just don’t have any time to spare, which I totally understand and respect. Uh, but I was, I was trying to figure out what I would do at that point. I felt like I needed a mentor so I either had to transfer, would either have to transfer somewhere else or try to convince him to work with me.

David McIntyre :              So I, I bugging him again and send them an email and said, look, I know you’re really busy, but if you just give me a few books to read, I’ll write a report on it. All you have to do as grade one paper, uh, and I won’t bug you at all. I promise. I was just looking for that feedback. So he agreed to do that. And then, um, I guess he really liked my work. He ended up hiring me as a research assistant. We worked on some papers together, and he helped me get some grants to do some research in the Dominican Republic and in Haiti, or excuse me, the Dominican Republic in Peru, uh, for my dissertation. And uh, it just really unfolded that way. And when I graduated I was able to get a job at the University of North Texas and one of the nation’s first well, the first emergency management program. And that also helped me, uh, many opportunities to advance my career. So that’s kind of the the story probably longer than you wanted, but uh, that’s, that’s my background.

Todd DeVoe:      Oh, it’s great. It’s really great for the students that are listing to us today. You have to be tenacious sometimes when it comes into getting what you want, just giving up on the first no. And that’s a that’s a that’s a really good lesson right there.

David McIntyre :              Absolutely. And I still like, because I in some ways, you know, I was mentored by, by doctor Drabek. In some ways, I had to learn by myself. And so I, I would spend a lot of time up at the library disaster research center at the University of Colorado. And I just read and read and studied and uh, yeah, hard work. It pays off, you know, life is challenging, but if people are dedicated, I think it’s good things usually happen.

Todd DeVoe:      So with disaster research and the fact that originally it kind of came from the sociology side of the world, and now we’re moving into, realistically emergency management has its own academic structure. Do you see new research coming out of, for emergency management from emergency managers? Or do you still think it’s going sit on the sociology side of the house?

David McIntyre :              Yeah, great question. And I think there’s no clear answer because there’s research happening in so many areas, but I agree with you. I think a lot of the initial research on disasters came from either a geographer’s studying natural hazards or it came from sociologists studying human behavior in disasters. And uh, and I feel in some ways that’s kind of where I grew up with the literature. I read a lot of literature coming out of it, that disastrous sociology and just loved it. I think it’s fascinating and really important. Um, but I think, I think, you know, we’ve, we’ve seen a movement to other disciplines and a movement towards emergency management as its own discipline, even though it’s interdisciplinary. So I think there, there have been, there’s been a lot of work, um, really important work from people who study public administration. So Rick Silvis, Bill Waugh, I think their work has been very important in the evolution of emergency management literature.

David McIntyre :              But really there are so many disciplines that, that study disaster and emergency management. Now, I was fortunate to edit a book entitled disciplines, disasters, and emergency management. And I have contributions from authors of many different disciplines. Um, geography, uh, international relations, comparative politics, economics, sociologists, uh, people from public administration, people from communication studies. And so there are so many different disciplines contributing to emergency management. Then in some ways, you know, emergency management is not the single discipline, but it is multidisciplinary. Uh, and I think there’s a, you know, fascinating to see the connections of the literature from different fields of study. Uh, but at the same time there’s also, uh, these, these emergency management programs that exist at the bachelor’s level, master’s level, and Ph.D. programs and they’re pumping scholars that are really advancing the the literature on the knowledge base for, for this particular field of study. So lots of great things are happening and new information coming out great every day, which is certainly different, you know, then when I was studying there just wasn’t quite right that much out there.

Todd DeVoe:      Right. Yeah. I mean I started, my career public administration degree wasn’t really an emergency management a field at the time. He could have gone to say criminal justice I suppose, or maybe fire science if you wanted to do something along those lines. Oh. Or sociology. But there wasn’t really an emergency management type of degree program out there. And I think you’re right. I think that that’s the cool part about this program or about emergency management. And that’s what I tell my students too, that you can get a really well rounded undergrad degree, say in public administration, something like that. And then you can move on to a master’s degree, say in emergency management or a Ph.D. and so forth and really grow a really your, your academic career that way. I think that’s kind of exciting.

David McIntyre :              Absolutely. And I think public administration is really important for emergency management. You know, we need, we need people who understand leadership and management and organizations and budgets and, uh, I think those skills are things that we can develop further emergency management.

Todd DeVoe:      Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, I tell my students all the time, the one class that I hated taking, but I use almost every day is cost benefit analysis. That one was a class that really got me, but I use it every day, and I’m thankful for that skill that I have.

David McIntyre :              Yeah. There’s other courses or knowledge sets with grant management interacting with, with city managers in our organizational behavior or relations, you know, local, state, federal, uh, aspects of government that are really important in emergency management. So that’s the exciting thing about emergency management. It’s also a challenging thing because there are so many things that we need to know and understand.

Todd DeVoe:      That’s so true. So one of the books that you have is your response to recovery. What made you decide to go with that aspect of,

David McIntyre :              like a lot of people we tend to focus on, you know, licensed sirens or the sexy part of disasters, the really intriguing part of disaster response to crisis moment of the disaster lifecycle if you will. And so that I got hooked into that area as well. FEMA was working on a, a disaster response, um, that kind of study guide to, to help professors. And I was able to, uh, take that opportunity, um, and Wayne Blancher who was the program manager or the time, and so I started to put this together or a, for FEMA for the higher education program. And along the way, I, one of the things I noticed is that, um, there’s a lot of great books out there, but I wondered if there were books out there that did a couple of things that I wanted. One was to integrate the theory and practice.

David McIntyre :              Uh, another one is to be, you know, try to be very multidisciplinary if possible. Uh, and then, and then something that, uh, you know, could help students and professors along the way. And so I decided to kind of take some of that material and add other material to it. The FEMA course that I was talking about, uh, sought out Wiley, uh, they were publishing a series at the time, and I got involved in that, and fortunately, I was able to publish that. And then I’ve published my second edition, and I’m sure it probably needs to be updated. So I just finished my homeland security book. Yeah. If I get time and energy, I’ll try to tackle that one again. So we’ll see how that unfolds.

Todd DeVoe:      The Media like to focus on the response, it is sexy especially wildland fires. The California wildfires, flames going across homes setting them on fire and the firefighters, police officers running around with their lights and sirens on. But then after that’s all settled, and we’re moving into today, or I guess now here in southern California, in northern California as well with be Paradise fire into the recovery phase where realistically in Paradise there they’re sifting, literally sifting through the ashes, looking for her body fragments, you know, and that, and so I guess that’s still sort of response. How do you see that transition going on from the response into the recovery? Like in your mind, through your research. When does recovery, when his response and in recovery begin?

David McIntyre :              That’s a great question. And there’s been a number of articles that have looked at that. Uh, there’s a great article by David Neal that I always have my students read. It’s on the phases of disasters. You know, he, he asks them very interesting questions about the phases and, uh, you know, one of the questions is, are they separate? Do they overlap? Are they mutually exclusive? How are they interconnected? And, um, I think right now in California, you know, it’s hard to say that was in one phase or the other because, you know, some of these fires are still continuing the Camp Fire. I believe it’s burned 138,000, um, uh, destroyed 10,000 structures and there are 56 people who have perished. But, um, I believe it’s, it’s not contained yet. In fact, I’m trying to remember; I think it’s 35% contained. So in some ways, there’s still, you know, they’re still fighting the fire, you know, the response is still in full swing.

David McIntyre :              There are probably people, they have to, um, you know, worn still. There’s probably evacuation that needs to take place. There’s mutual aid coordination that is occurring. And so in some ways we’re, we’re still very much in the response phase and yet in the right behind the fire, there’s all these, you know, homes that have been destroyed that I’ve mentioned. And people’s lives have just been, I guess, severely affected. And so people are trying to find a place to live. I know there’s, um, I think, uh, 13,000 people in shelters, if I remember correctly. So they’re trying to just take care of their basic needs, you know, food and shelter and clothing and those types of things. Uh, but after that, of course, there’s the issue of, of rebuilding. And so people are going to have to be working with insurance companies. Uh, they’re going to have to work with the government for permits.

Todd DeVoe:      There’s going to be debris that has to be removed. Uh, you mentioned, um, you know, the people who have been killed, there’s been 56 fatalities. And so there’s, there’s, uh, an ongoing search and rescue or search and recovery and these cases of individuals, I believe there are 130 people missing still, so that, that’s hard to know if that’s response or recovery, but, but that is occurring. Um, and then there’s going to be, there probably will be some legal battles. Uh, I’ve heard up at the Camp Fire, uh, that, uh, supposedly with the high winds, a PG&E Pacific gas, and electric, I believe, uh, supposedly there they agreed to shut down lines when, when winds get severe. And I think the winds were clocked at 52 miles per hour, but, uh, supposedly that didn’t happen. And so, um, line, uh, allegedly sparked and led to this fire or created the fire.

David McIntyre :              And so there could be some lawsuits as well. And so it will be interesting to see what happens there. There could be, you know, I think the estimate is that the liability is $15 billion. Uh, so if that, if that has been proven that there is a fault by PG&E, uh, there’ll be law suits too, and then the rebuilding could take years and even decades. Um, so this is, uh, you know, a recovery that blends into a response, but it could also take a long, long time for that to play out and for people to resume their normal life. And then, of course, there’s, you know, all of the vegetation has been destroyed, and there’s the possibility of flooding as well. We saw that with the Thomas Fire and uh, December of 2017 in Ventura. So, uh, so it’s, it’s fascinating to look at the response and recovery and kind of try to figure out where we’re at. Uh, and in some ways, we’re still very much in response in other ways we’re moving towards recovery, but that will take a long time.

Todd DeVoe:      Yeah. When you are in the response, I think the recovery section should be wrapping up at the same time.

David McIntyre :              Absolutely

Todd DeVoe:      I really truly believe that you know, you talked about the public safety shut off a little bit and it’s kind of controversial down here as well. Over here in California as well. Southern California Edison initiated the same program, and I know that there were some concerns about, well, when you shut the power off, what about people that are on, on ventilators and things like this that uh, you know, at home, how does that work? I know southern California Edison is working hard on that and those guys as well. So the California Edison is in line for a lawsuit regarding the Woolsey fire because they think that some of their equipment that caused that fire. And so, I think that we’re not out of any kind of “the woods” at all, for lack of better term a with both fires and what the outcomes are going to be and potential on, on a policy that’s going to be changed, uh, due to these two fires.

David McIntyre :              Yeah, it is a difficult decision because people do need power. They need electricity to run their lives to a, you know, take care of important medical needs like you mentioned. And yet we have these dilemmas, and you know if we should shut things down to prevent fires. And it’s, it’s really a tough call, and it’s, you know, sometimes we guess right, and sometimes we don’t. And so that’s very difficult. But there’s, you know, there are other dilemmas and potential lawsuits as well. I think some of the warnings, at least with the Camp Fire, we’re maybe incomplete. Uh, people were notified by police cruisers coming by the neighborhoods telling them to evacuate. And in other cases, people receive texts from neighbors. But, uh, and some people receive, I think, some, some warnings from Code Red, which I guess is either a local or state, um, warning system. I don’t know enough about it to say that for sure.

Todd DeVoe:      It’s actually a commercial brand.

David McIntyre :              Oh, commercial brand. Okay. So, uh, the, the federal, you know, the federal emergency alert system, I think was not used. And at least based on what I read and, and, uh, the camp Fire extensively. And maybe, maybe that’s due to some, some technological issue that has to be addressed, but it’s tragic because, um, some people may not have been, didn’t have enough warning to evacuate and even, and there are other dilemmas to when you evacuate. How should that occur? Uh, in the Camp Fire, uh, they, they obviously warning and trying to evacuate the people closest to the fire. They didn’t want to help to tell everyone to leave because they were worried about clogging the access roads and so forth. I think there’s four of them in that area. And in 2008 with fire there, they were overwhelmed with traffic. So they didn’t want everyone to evacuated the same time like what we saw after Hurricane Katrina and in Houston. But uh, but probably not enough people were notified in advance to get them out of harm’s way. And that’s why we have 56 fatalities and 130 people missing right now. So these are really a, you know, the decisions that are made have life and death consequences. It’s really difficult to make those decisions because sometimes you don’t always have the important information that you need.

Todd DeVoe:      Yeah. It is interesting because it only has one way as far as for evacuation purposes. So I understand the concept of doing keyhole evacuations. I don’t know enough about their emergency management program up there or their public safety program to know how they chose to do warning alert warning systems. I do know that there have been conversations of why they didn’t use, uh, WEA, and do they even have access to WEA, and that’s, that’s like some questions that people are asking down here. Um, and that’s going to be interesting to find out, but about that as well, still going to be a lot of lessons learned out of that specific tragedy up there.

David McIntyre :              Absolutely. Absolutely, Right now I understand that between four and 500 people doing search and rescue or search and recovery and uh, that includes, uh, you know, some local or perhaps state officials and the national guard as well. So they’re busy trying to find people who may have perished. Uh, the 130 that are missing.

Todd DeVoe:      Yeah,

David McIntyre :              it’s important to work as well.

Todd DeVoe:      I think we’re going to see those numbers, unfortunately. Go higher.

David McIntyre :              Thanks. So it’s very tragic. Yes. I think you’re right.

Todd DeVoe:      It’s amazing to see some of the drone footage there. 64% of that city has been destroyed.

David McIntyre :              Yeah. And you know, we were talking about recovery before. You know, just think about the impact of that because not only your homes destroyed, businesses are destroyed. So even if you could get your home back up and running quickly, the business that you work for, your employer maybe, uh, unable to function still. And so, and then, and then one business may affect their performance, their economic activity relies on another. Uh, and so, um, you know, the recovery is just really problematic in cases like

Todd DeVoe:      let’s talk about rebuilding here for a second. So, you know, obviously we’ve, we’ve had a lot of areas where fires and storms have destroyed homes. Um, you know, are building in areas where they haven’t built before. Such as Houston where they actually built in a reservoir. I know they’re doing a buyback program over there. You have the the uh, New Orleans specifically with some of the areas that are flood prone there. Some in Illinois, I know that they moved to complete city from one level to the next because of the flooding. Should we rebuild every single time? We have a disaster or should we really take a look at where we’re putting homes and businesses?

David McIntyre :              Yeah, I do think we should pause and really study and understand the risk, the hazards of the vulnerability and determine what best step is. Obviously, the preferred action is to do that, uh, before a disaster when we’re developing, um, you know, cities and neighborhoods and businesses locating them best possible areas. Now, let’s be honest, there’s, there’s no risk, free area on earth, but we can minimize our risk if we’re careful. And so certainly after a disaster, once we’ve seen what can happen, we need to learn lessons from that. And it’s, it’s something we need to do. And yet it’s something that’s also very difficult to do. You know, politics and preferences get in the way. People, you know, they want to resume their normal life, they want to rebuild in there where they live, where they grew up. So sometimes they don’t want to change, they’re their prior ways, and they want, you know, the the beautiful scenery on the mountain side or what have you.

David McIntyre :              But it really is important for us to, to really stop and think about where we’re building how we are building or how we’re rebuilding and determine if that’s the wisest choice that we can make. And, and even if we rebuild, there are things we can do, you know, trying to, to create a barrier if you will, around the home by eliminating some of the vegetation so that there is a chance the home could survive, you know, uh, some type of fire. So these are really, really difficult challenging things. Uh, traditionally, you know, emergency managers have focused on preparedness and response, but you really need also to start focusing more on mitigation and recovery so that we can minimize risk and eliminate or reduce, mmm. These things from happening in the future

Todd DeVoe:      in my lectures, especially with the recovery aspect of it, is writing your recovery plan. Obviously the plan prior to any event occurring in your jurisdiction. And one of the things I really encouraged to think about and talk to your elected officials and to your city managers and stuff is having the possibility of rezoning during the process of saying, you know, maybe we should move things from here to there or whatever the deal is. And then the other aspect of it too is looking to see what building codes that we can, um, we can put in place to, to reduce the damage. So if you take a look at that home in Mexico Beach, Florida, uh, that survive that hurricane where the rest of the the entire city is flattened, could we or should we encourage a stronger building codes that are above and beyond what we have today that we know would protect from, from destruction.

David McIntyre :              Yeah. Todd, I think, I think this is really important. You’ve hit on really key topics that we need to understand, push for, you know, it is good to have some of these pre plans in place. We, we generally have an idea of what could occur and when or where it could occur. It’s just a matter of when. So for, is this in the floodplain? Do we know there’s going to be a flood? If that’s the case, um, or if there’s, you know, a wild land interface that could lead to a fire. If that’s the case, should we have some type of building code or some regulations with land use planning that could be implemented on the spur of the moment? And we really need to have those in advance because there’s a short window of opportunity if we wait too long to get that figured out after the disaster, people have already started to make plans and rebuild, and it’s too late.

David McIntyre :              So you need to have that in advance so that once, once a disaster occurs, it’s a turnkey system. You know, you just work with your officials to implement what you’ve already decided. Uh, and I, I think you’re right with the, whether it’s land use planning or building codes, we can do things differently, and we can see it benefit from, from those actions. Uh, you know, uh, as far back as Hurricane Andrew, we saw the impact of building codes, certain neighborhoods, and homes with stood disasters based on how they were built with hurricane straps and other reinforcements. Uh, in other cases, uh, the buildings collapse because they weren’t built as they should be. So during or after the disaster, you know, let’s try it too advanced the codes so that we don’t have to go through the same thing again. Or at least we try to minimize the probability in the future.

Todd DeVoe:      And I hate to say this, I know it’s one of the things that I have to struggle with myself, with my ideals. Do you think we should use eminent domain for public safety reasons?

David McIntyre :              I do. I think if there is a, a logical and convincing case that this area is dangerous, it’s going to lead to loss of life, a loss of property. I think we have to make tough decisions and do what is in the best interest of, uh, individuals and families and communities. Obviously, there are, there are liberty issues here, and freedom issues that people will will complain about. We also need to think about the impact on society. Uh, you know, an analogy, if someone who doesn’t evacuate when they should, they’ve been warned and they decide not to evacuate. Uh, they ended up creating a lot of expense for the community as the community sends responders out to help those individuals, um, and the, the the responders put themselves at with care for those individuals. So, I think the same principle applies to mitigation. Eminent domain may need to be used and implemented to prevent futures, disasters, and it doesn’t make sense to keep rebuilding things over and over and over again. We’re just wasting resources. Uh, and so, uh, if there is a really clear hazard zone, uh, we should probably not live in that location. We could probably use it for other purposes, maybe a golf course or a park or something like that. But, uh, let’s try to limit the homes or businesses that are located in that particular area and let’s find a safer area somewhere else.

Todd DeVoe:      Yeah, so true. I struggle with that one because of my personal ideals of personal freedom and liberty. But then you take a look at the whole picture. I think that you might have to tool that we could use to help protect society in general. Kind of moving on that, we’ve had this conversation regarding mandatory evacuation and it really kind of comes into play with the Malibu fires where Pepperdine University chose to shelter in place instead of evacuating when the mandatory evacuation order was given. And there were some residents of Malibu that are really upset with Pepperdine thinking that because those students stayed, that they pulled resources away from fighting the general fire to protect tech, the college. What responsibilities do you think that we have as responders to people who do not listen to the evacuation orders?

David McIntyre :              Yeah. You know, this is another really difficult issue for so many reasons. Part of it is, is the nature of the disaster and what’s happening, how fast it’s unfolding, where the fires spreading that can determine what we do in terms of warnings and what we recommend for evacuations. And sometimes it’s safer to stay in place rather than move or leave. And so, uh, I think one of the things that we need to do before a disaster is just educated people as much as we can, whether it’s citizens or business leaders or university officials. MMM. You know, we need to make sure that everybody understands what can happen, could occur bad. It could be the impacts that it might have on the loss of life or property so those good decisions can be made. And oftentimes if there hasn’t been some forethought and to how you might respond, the decisions are suboptimal and even dangerous.

David McIntyre :              And so it’s, I think our obligation is to really try to educate people as much as we can before an event occurs. And then when, and has been a curse being as clear as we can in warnings. You know, we learned after 9/11 how important warnings are. Uh, you know, the the government created the warning system to deal with terrorism. And ironically, it had ignored all of the literature on warning. And there’s a rich, robust literature, yeah. Dates back 50 years that really talks about how warning should unfold. You know, they need to be clear, they need to be concise if they can, they need to provide, uh, facts and evidence and recommendations. And, uh, some of those homeland security warning systems didn’t have that after 9/11. And so we had to change our ways there. But you know, when those warnings are given, they have to be very clear, and they have to go out to through different methods. MMM. So I mentioned earlier regarding the Camp Fire that, you know, the police were involved, you know, in their cruisers, they were telling people to leave the neighborhood. Neighbors were texting one another, there were, you know, the Code Red was being implemented. Uh, and in some cases, and so you want multiple ways to communicate with people including radio or TV or what have you so that we have the best chance of warning people to leave an area or help them understand what they should do to protect themselves when something bad happens.

Todd DeVoe:      Yeah. Dr. Dennis Mileti has some good research based upon; he’s actually a really good resource for that.

David McIntyre :              Absolutely. Yeah. And this goes back to our conversation about the disaster sociologists and, and certainly, he’s one of the foremost experts in that particular area. Understanding human behavior and warning systems and, and what makes warnings effect of looking at it many, many case studies. What is the best way to warn people and then how do people react as a result? And so it is important that MMM, those in emergency management, uh, and others read that literature to understand what we should do when disaster strikes

Todd DeVoe:      on the warning systems. Kind of, kind of going back to those commercial opportunities available to, for purchasing for Code Reds, for instance, is one of them or you have a Titan HST that is one of our sponsors. , you got, regroup, you got, I don’t everbridge whole bunch of different ones that are out there, and at the end of the day, it’s really seen what they can do for you and how they can push out. But yeah, at the end of the day you have to, with the way the laws are written, people have to opt in, uh, with their cell phones to these programs because we can’t get cell data to send out to them their land lines. We can take legally, or what I say take the, they’ll put this information just like it would be like a phone book into our system so we can get their landlines. But with everybody moving away from landlines into cell phones, how effective do you think alert systems like this are?

David McIntyre :              I think one of the things that we need to do in the future is to study these different warning systems and identify their strengths and weaknesses, pros or cons, their costs, the benefits so that the emergency managers can make the best use of that technology. So I think that’s one thing that we have to do right off the bat is really understand those different systems and what would work best for any given community. I think the second thing is to make sure that we’re communicating with, uh, the end user, the cell phone user. Yeah. Make sure they understand the options that they have and, and the responsibility that they have. Frankly two. Okay. Find ways to protect themselves or receive notifications when disasters occur. So I think that education is very important. And then, and then another thing that could occur is, is you know, the government working with, uh, these, these software vendors and the cell phone providers and the networking companies to figure out how we can make sure that people can get warned. So there are lots of opportunities for, for progress in this area. I think even though cell phones provide many advantages for the warning, but in some ways, we’re kind of switching between systems and I don’t think we’ve worked out all of the kinks yet. Yeah. There’s a lot of things too or things to do still.

Todd DeVoe:      I agree. I think you just nailed on the head right there. There is some personal responsibility that people have to take when they’re preparing themselves at home. Um, and I know that’s a whole nother one. Other show we can talk about personal preparedness

David McIntyre :              for sure. Yeah.

Todd DeVoe:      All right, well we’re coming here to the close to the end here. A couple of last questions I have for you. One is that people are interested in getting in touch with you. How can they find you?

David McIntyre :              I’d be happy to communicate with anybody if they have questions or comments so they can reach me. I’m at the Utah Valley University. I’m a dean of the College of Health and public service, so they can look me up on the website. My email is david.McIntyre@uvu.edu s, and I’d be happy to respond to an email and carry out a conversation as best I can with the time I have.

Todd DeVoe:      Well, thank you so much for that. And for those you that are driving down the road and you don’t have time to look for, your pencil is not sharp. Don’t worry. We’ll have this information in the show notes so you can go back and get the information, all right, so here’s the toughest question of the day. Books or publication do you recommend to somebody in the emergency management field?

David McIntyre :              Boy, there are so many good books, um, that, uh, that they could look at. Um, I think there’s a great volume. Uh, the, it’s the handbook of disaster research is published by the Disaster Research Center at the University of Delaware. It has a number of authors from different disciplines. Um, and there is a second edition, a newer edition for that book and it covers so many great topics from so many different disciplines from different aspects of the disaster, different phases. Um, and so that would be a great book that I would recommend. So that would be one of them. But uh, yeah, I would encourage everybody also look back at the older literature that disaster sociology literature and then um, some of the PA literature, the public administration literature would be very helpful. Particularly if someone wants to be an emergency manager, I think. I think they need to understand the geography issues, the hazards, the human behavior aspects that I talked about. But also how do you, how can you be an effective emergency manager in a government context? I think that would be very important as well.

Todd DeVoe:      That’s a really great recommendation. Well, sir, is there anything that you’d like to say directly to the emergency manager before we let you go?

David McIntyre :              Yeah. Well, two comments for those who are students. I just want to commend you for, for your studies. I think it’s really important to become educated. I think having a career in emergency management would be very exciting and uh, although emergency management doesn’t pay the best, I think it’s very rewarding in other ways. Uh, having a degree is, is financially viable and important. People who have degrees make it a lot more money in their lives than people without degrees. So it’s definitely worth it. And then for the emergency manager, the practitioners, I’m just so grateful for all that they do, uh, to protect us. Typically, there, they’re understaffed, they’re underfunded, they’re overworked, they have many responsibilities and duties. And so I’m just very grateful for all that they do to protect us. And I certainly salute with them as well as the first responders. And I hope that we can do a better job supporting them in the future.

Todd DeVoe:      Well, David, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you being here and let’s do this some time again.

David McIntyre :              Okay, sounds good. Thanks so much, Todd.

Links

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/david-mcentire-6a8085116

Website: https://www.uvu.edu/profpages/profiles/show/user_id/19894

Email: david.mcentire@uvu.edu

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