Using EM in Post Conflict Stabilization

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This week we are talking to Kyle King about rebuilding nations after war. In today’s world, we are not short of human-caused disasters, war, terrorist attacks, and more. Kyle is using the skills of emergency management to help rebuild these nations.

Kyle King:             Going through and cleaning up munitions and um, you know, doing the explosive ordinance disposal. That all comes out as a result of a lot of the UN’s work.

Todd DeVoe:     Hi, welcome to the EM Weekly show, your emergency management podcast. Today we are talking to Kyle King about a unique idea using emergency managers to build capacity in post-conflict nations. Kyle has been working on that kind of concept in Kosovo over the last few years.

Todd DeVoe:     Hey, in two weeks we’ll be in the Phoenix area for the emergency management leaders conference, the EML. See and come by and visit us at the Titan HST mobile studio, meet some of our guests. And you can also, you know, maybe ask a question live on the radio now under the interview.

Todd DeVoe:     Kyle welcome to the weekly show.

Kyle King:             Thank you for having me.

Todd DeVoe:     How did you get involved in emergency management?

Kyle King:             Sure, absolutely. So my name is Kyle King. I am the managing director of capacity building international, and we are just basically a small kind of boutique consultancy. We work internationally, and our focus areas or, and post-conflict operations is stabilization and those types of environments. And my personal background started with the department defense emergency services where I spent about 16, 17 years, uh, through the DOD Emergency Management Services and worked my way up to a section chief of operations and training. But what was unique about that was that I actually spent about seven years and Bosnia with stabilization force, two and a half years in Afghanistan and in the Kabul region. And then also most recently, almost about 10 years in Kosovo with NATO. And so my personal experience has been through the operation side, but then actually working with the post-conflict crisis management, emergency management spectrum internationally.

Todd DeVoe:     So Kyle, tell me a little bit about some of the challenges that you had with your program.

Kyle King:             So we, we focus internationally. Um, and one of our main areas right now that we look at is basically the optic or the lens of how we can use emergency management too, help with post-conflict stabilization and operations and know in order to rebuild society’s after conflict. And that’s one of the things that we really focused on, which is why I’m happy to be having this conversation because this is not something that we talk about very much.

Todd DeVoe:     Some of the things we’ve been talking about are some of your programs that you’re doing. And I’m, I’m excited about the education side of it. What do you think the role of emergency management can be and helping out with reestablishing society in those war torn countries?

Kyle King:             Well that, that’s a great question. And so one of the things that doesn’t, one of the reasons why we wanted to have this type of and start this conversation was because from my experience of working in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Kosovo, merchant management plays a really key role. And, and, and looking at society, rebuilding society. So if you take the overall assumption that all the security sector, the police, the courts, the fire and emergency services, the prehospital care, all of that has been degraded or demolished after conflict. And so from an emergency management perspective and from that optic, you know, you can look at society and knowing everything that we know now. And everything out of the United States and all the lessons learned. Being able to go forth and start a program from the bottom up and knowing the importance of things like inter agency cooperation and being able to put that foot forward first and through the emergency management perspective, rebuild these, these pillars of society that people need to function and especially in terms of community preparedness and other aspects.

Kyle King:             And we can build that from the bottom up and start recreating a society that’s more resilient than what it was previously. And so I think emergency management plays a really key role. And we do that through, we have a portfolio basically a four pieces. We look at it from an educational perspective, experiential learning, uh, development portfolio where we work with a lot of institutions in other countries. And then also from an experimentation portfolio where we work with institutions in the United States or in Europe. And we try and test different projects to see how they work and how they can help society develop

Todd DeVoe:     somebody who’s going to, to go there to work with you guys, to learn from you guys. What do they get out of the experience?

Kyle King:             Well, one of the things that we, it’s a significant challenge for us because a lot of the EM community is driven by what’s happening in the United States. And so bringing somebody over to work with us to look at what we’re doing and how we rebuilt societies, the first things are going to realize is that, you know, a lot of these major instruments and tools that we use in the United States to deal with crisis, to deal with disaster recovery, it’s just are not present. And so you have to be able to have a fundamental core, basic level understanding. And I mean it in such a way that you have to be the technical expert and in order to be able to dumb down the things to the most basic, essential core blocks that you need to be able to move society forward. So when you’re going internationally and you’re working with these different programs, you’re going to face challenges such as, you know, what works in the u s naturally doesn’t work everywhere.

Kyle King:             There’s a society issues, the cultural issues, the legal issues of trying to make these things happen. the international guidelines are often missing. So what works best? How can you fit what’s happening with the United Nations or the assistant’s mechanisms from the EU or the similar to planning processes with NATO. How can you merge these together with the host nation and what they’re currently working on in this strategic objectives they want to achieve to try and build a community and more resilient society. And so some of the things that, and one the, what I believe is one the, the biggest learning points about this, and one of the biggest advantages is the fact that you start to open your eyes to this entirely unique cultural perspective, cultural intelligence piece to where you start to understand the fundamental building blocks of what it takes as an emergency manager, what components and where they are, and then how, how they play a role in overall society beyond just the technical pieces.

Kyle King:             So everything is, is really quite, quite regulated and quite formal in the United States. But when you take all of that away and we also, we often make assumptions about a lot of the tools and mechanisms that are there. For instance, the use of insurance as a mechanism for risk management insurance doesn’t exist in a lot of these places. So what do you do when insurance is not there? What do you do? With all these different types of tools and things that we’re accustomed to. And in that way, going abroad, learning these things abroad actually build your perspective and portfolio and to be able to understand how the society and pieces fit together.

Todd DeVoe:     I am Hearing is that you’re going into these locations and there are some cultural differences or political differences obviously, and now you’re walking in and saying, this is how, we use the principles to, to fix your country. Has there been a lot of pushback on that? Or if people really appreciated some of the concepts that you’re bringing to them?

Kyle King:             What can be honest and when we can drill down into that just a little bit. I’ll use an example from when I was in Afghanistan and in these types of environments, there’s so much aid funding that’s going in, in so many different programs. Uh, in one case we had, uh, I think, yeah, so $264 million were being spent towards the, towards buying fire apparatus for the Kabul region. And we were sitting in a workshop with some of the local leaders and we’re the one the questions I asked is, okay, you’ve got these new firetrucks now where would you put them within the city of Kabul, where your hazards, what is it, what are your, what is your thought process? And going through this and getting all of this new equipment. And he basically pointed to a small village outside Kabul and said, I would put them there.

Kyle King:             And I asked why and he said, well, that’s where I live. So, and that’s where my family is. And so you start to see and understand that their perspective and like the cultural aspects and what they have learned is driving their decision making process. So then you have to walk them towards let’s just say the norms and the principals to be able to get them to go through that process of okay, but is that the best use of that equipment? Is this the best policy to be implementing? And then what is your thought process to able to, you know, where do you see the biggest hazards in some of your city? And so the challenges are really threefold and it’s dealing with the host nation perspective and getting them to understand the principles and the place of these principles in a, in a larger process.

Kyle King:             Number two, getting the international community that’s there. So NATO, EU, UN. OSC all these major international organizations to align with the effort to implement the emergency management as a stabilization tool because that’s often not really represented in their current donation programs and schemes. And then the third piece, if it’s not at the international level, the individual bilateral donors, the ones that are in the country doing the work, getting them to understand the role of emergency management. And so if you’re in that position and you’re working in international, you ended up pulling on all these different types of strings and programs to put things together to try and build a that type of more resilient society and get these programs started. And so there’s, there’s multifaceted challenges all the way, all the way around.

Todd DeVoe:     How does the international community define resilience?

Kyle King:             Well, that’s a great question. I think that the defense definition of resilience is, is constantly changing. Um, so we’ve seen just the, the use of resilience as a term has just increased exponentially over the last three years. And so, we have resilience as far as what we’re seeing from, you know, the Rockefeller Foundation and promote, we’re saying and, and UN disaster risk reduction and sustainable development goals. We’ve seen resilience start to pick up with the terminology, linking it to countering violent extremism. And so we’re starting to see resilience used as a single word. A type of bud was buzzword that is being blanked across all initiatives. And it’s being used that way mostly because it’s appealing. It’s an appealing term. It’s trendy. And that’s where a lot of people are putting their focus on at the moment. And so finding a single definition that’s governing all these different organizations does not really exist. NATO has a definition, which is this targeting more, say at defense aspect. The UN with the sustainable development goals, the EU has a mechanism or a definition of resilience. And so it’s very, very difficult to find a single definition of resilience that appeals and meets everybody’s needs.

Todd DeVoe:     It’s so true. You know, we tend to in the United States and right now with this concept of the 100 resilient cities is we dig down into the granule level until the neighborhoods of getting each individual person understanding of what it is and trying to be ready. But it seems like in the case of what you’re talking about, it sort of a broader stroke of what resilience is. Am I reading that right or am I off on that?

Kyle King:             That’s largely true. Unfortunately I think in the international community, what it is, it’s more of a catchall phrase for a lot of programs. There are some focus programs that look at building resilient societies, but it’s often linked to say what the UN is doing with their sustainable development goals and disaster risk reduction platform. And then there’s building resilience in terms of what NATO is looking at in terms of defense and creating stability on the outer edges of the alliance. And so there’s aspects with that as well, but they all take different context and that context is built upon what all of these different nations agree on. So resilience for NATO is based on the agreed consensus of 29 nations and the UN is based on all the different nations and what they approve as a definition. And so it does, you’re absolutely correct. It does. It has this broad stroking concept about what an national resilience program looks like at the same time that is as causing us challenges. When we drill down to what does that technically mean like you’re doing with resilient cities and then trying to, for lack of better words, impose that idea on top of another nation, then a city in a culture about what they should be doing about resilience.

Todd DeVoe:     If we start bringing in international emergency manager, say from Australia, Canada, the United States like that, is there a chance that the governments will, will push back on what we think is what we should be doing as to create resilient communities and disaster already or and rebuilding communities after they’ve been torn by conflict or are they going to be receptive to what we’re, what our concepts are of building societies?

Kyle King:             No, I don’t think there’s going to be any real push back. I think one of the challenges is that every organization is driven by their own objectives. And so if we have an objective of implementing emergency management or using emergency management to move towards sustainable development and building more resilient communities and our view of resiliency and getting the host nation to do that as well, what we ended up doing is that may or may not be on the radar or on the three year plan or on the objectives of what those international organizations are doing. So for example, most of these organizations are running on a three year project cycle. So they’ll identify goals which run three years, uh, and that might be on education, might be on rule of law, or might be on a community policing. And they’ll focus on those programs for three years.

Kyle King:             And that’s focus. And so moving away from that is often very generally difficult. So there, it’s not that they’re not going to agree, it’s not that they’re going to disagree with the initiative to work on emergency management and, and, and those types of aspects. But it where does it fit in the larger scheme of all these different lines of development. And then in that case where, what drives that funding and what drives that component? And this has been one of the challenges for me personally and working in the societies is trying to put image merchant management forward as a tool to measure and look at stability. And it doesn’t often, it doesn’t fit into the normal construct of what the international community does. So they often focus on the large pillars of society, which of course are needed. So that’s education, that’s rule of law, that’s democracy, that’s voting, that’s all these different pillars of society that need to be built.

Kyle King:             But at the same time as some point you have to get to where you have to start talking inter agency response. You have to start talking about national response planning. And then that’s when we start to see there’s some very specific moments in time where you start having conflicts and, or difficulty trying to work on those because there’s no real program to address that. So is there a need, is there a space? In my opinion, yes, definitely. I’ve, I’ve lived through that. Um, does it conflict? It doesn’t necessarily conflict, but it may not align with their longer term objectives. And so to be successful in that, it would take a wider conversation with some of these international actors to see how to bring things to bear accordingly.

Todd DeVoe:     In my head, I’m thinking about on the recovery side of things and the ideas of land use, zoning, you know, sustainable building using LEAD no lead architecture standards, things like that we are really pushing for here and using in Canada and United States, Mexico too for that matter. And how would somebody in say, Afghanistan who just wants a house, you know, or, or, or whatever, how do they, uh, or Syria for instance, like what’s going on over there? If we say we got in there and we’re able to help. How do we use those standards there on rebuilding? And that’s kind of what I am wrapping my head around right now.

Kyle King:             Well, we also have a saying that when we try and, and work in international development programs or things like this, we first have to look at the host nation and see what they actually have and what’s been in place, what was in place before the conflict and what was working well, one of the most difficult things to do is to kind of push everything off the table and put down codes and building codes and standards on the, on the table and say this is what you need to do. That really never sticks for many different reasons. So looking at what they had before, assessing what that is, looking regionally to see what fits. So, In the case of what you’re using with that Afghanistan maybe the U.S. Isn’t the best model, but you know, you should have somebody smart enough on the ground that would say, okay, what are they doing in Pakistan, for example, if that’s any better or not.

Kyle King:             Um, because, and also that helps with translation. That’s helps with the cultural aspect. And that helps with getting things moving through just a lot faster. At the same time and the recovery efforts, there’s an aspect of just timing, timing and their ambition to it as a community. They’re not going to care about sprinkler systems, you know it’s just nothing that they’re really going to be concerned about because it’s not on that, you know, hierarchy of needs for them. And so the emergency managers that are, that should be working in these types of societies are in these types of environments, should be cognizant and aware of where that next level of security is. And maybe it’s not a full set of codes and standards for buildings, but so we have to accept that. So then what is maybe the next level up that we can get to. So it’s progressive steps towards sustainable development that we look at. But also, in the context of emergency management.

Todd DeVoe:     I interviewed a gentleman who did a documentary called the disaster capitalism and he goes into some of the areas that have been really hard hit by disasters, some man-made and some natural such disasters such as Haiti, Some of the issues that they have with getting in and getting access. Are you guys having any issues with getting access to where you need to go?

Kyle King:             Okay, that’s a really good question. So I’ll need to clarify here immediately. Post-conflict or directly in these kinds of conflict areas. Now if you’re talking about an area like Afghanistan or an area like, Syria and these places, obviously you’re going to have an issue with access. There’s obviously a high threat to security, you know, I don’t recommend going to those places. The areas that we function in or what we call basically post-conflict plus about ten years. So it’s the point where the security situation has stabilized enough that people can turn their focus towards development. And when that happens, then we see an environment, much like you see in modern day Kosovo today and so of other areas around the world where you know, things are stable enough and then you can turn towards actually taking the next step and having more complex development, not just getting water to people, but then also looking at, you know, programs like food safety.

Kyle King:             So you’re able to, to add, to mature that development process once things have stabilized and there’s a functioning police force and as a functioning, you know, or at least operating healthcare system and these types of programs. So there’s an access piece from a security perspective. And then I guess also when you’re talking about larger scale countries that are remote, like Afghanistan, there’s an access piece physically. So physically being able to go to some of these mountainous regions and yeah, that, that’s a challenge even for the military. So there’s no good, easy answers for that one. But I can definitely see it being a problem. Um, and that’s why we focus on this kind of post conflict plus 10-year type of time.

Todd DeVoe:     Yeah. I mean it has to be one of those things you considered before you decided to take on a project of how your personal safety obviously, but the safety for the community, their community as well. And then there’s an understanding of what their kind of going through. Right.

Kyle King:             Well definitely. And so it comes back down to the, the immediate security needs. And so once things have stabilized and you know, daily life is sort of returning, if I can use that as an example, that that’s a rather broad description, but the say daily life is returning and people are able to put food on the table and they’re able to have a job and they’re able to start, um, you know, sending their kids to school and things are functioning as a normal society, then you can, you know, that security, that immediate security need is fulfilled, then you can start building upon that and then maturing that community over time.

Todd DeVoe:     You’re going to find interesting is I’ve been through a few areas that were post conflict and there’s still, I mean this is 15 years ago, post conflict and are still like leftover tanks that were destroyed in the middle of the fields and things like this. Um, you know, I always, when I was walking through there I’m like, wow, this is kind of interesting that this just becomes white noise for people. You know, where we walk in with, oh, there’s this trick tank and it’s an interesting, they just see it as white noise. How do you go about and say, Hey, this area over here, it needs to be cleaned up and it’s number one or is a hazard number two, you know, aesthetically, you know, probably doesn’t look that great for people who live in the community to see just this destruction, you know, how, how do you communicate that to someone?

Kyle King:             Well, one of the ways that we do that is we, you know, I was fortunate to work with a pretty good team in Kosovo that was a working on the mine actual program, uh, and with the Mine Action Center and coachable. And so they, you know, fortunately, or rather, unfortunately I guess however you want to look at that. But you know, when a conflict has occurred that the UN has a rather robust system for buying action. And so going through and cleaning up munitions and you know, doing the explosive ordnance disposal, that all comes out as a result of a lot of the UN’s work and what they’re doing and these types of societies. So there’s a natural evolution of that, that where the international organizations come in and they assess, the host nation to, to clear out the munitions, to build their own capacity, their own organizations to take on that and build their own capacity to do that.

Kyle King:             Now moving from that kind of conflict and then you start talking about things like, which is more in the kind of the EM field, let’s look at like radio, let radiological waste biohazard waste, chemical waste. Where does that go and what happens with that? And then, you know, from our SPEC perspective as he, you know, from the EM community, then you started to look at these things with a more critical eye and it becomes increasingly interesting. And these environments, A colleague of mine, works in the field of stability policing. So the field of, you know, the security situation dissolves so much that you have to implement some type of police capability. And in these types of environments they find that environmental waste is a huge opportunity for organized crime. And so you start to get into these issues which are, are highly unique for these environments.

Kyle King:             And then where do you take all of these types of hazards, waste products, how do you dispose of them? What are the proper procedures to do that? And then what is a simply just the next step? I mean, if they’re out in the open today, how can you just get them into a warehouse or a facility and how can you transport them? And so there’s a lot of things that, that are, are done on the conflict side by the international organizations. But then when you start looking a bit broader spectrum into the EM field and you start looking at all these different areas, you start to see that nobody’s really touching these things and as far as developing more as a society, if that makes sense. So the munitions piece I’m less worried about because there’s mechanisms for that, but when you start talking about, you know, environmental waste products and everything, and then there has to be a more robust presence and especially from an am perspective of how to deal with that.

Todd DeVoe:     That’s pretty interesting stuff. Okay. Let’s move a little bit on the topic here. So one of the things that you guys do specifically, we kind of highlighted a little bit, um, was, is the education piece and a, you don’t ever talking about that a little bit offline how, how do you get involved? Like as a student wants to come over or a school wants to be involved with you, how do they get their students over there to learn about using the emergency management in the post conflict areas?

Kyle King:             Well. So one of the ways is, is that we have modeled our programs and what we’re currently developing against just the traditional study abroad program. And so we want to be conducive to any academic partners that want to enhance their portfolio for their students. And so what we want to provide is we want to provide this operational environment for students to be able to learn about how EM applies in operations, in post-conflict societies. And then for the academic partner, we fit that in such a structure of a semester based program to where they are able to fit it within their own type of systems and structures and requirements. And so we either partner directly with the academic institution and build an in house program or we also have other academic partners that we can channel that through. Uh, simply just to get in touch with us and be, our website is completely fine to reach out and find more information.

Kyle King:             But what I think is one of the key issues is to make sure, because EM is such a US focus, you know, degree program that we want to make sure that what we’re doing is, is conducive to what they’re learning in that degree program. So there’s a lot of things that we can discuss and show students about the different organizations from defense threat reduction agency to, to NATO and others. And one of the ways that we do that is by having the student come over and, and basically be immersed in that environment for a semester.

Todd DeVoe:     What kind of students do you guys get?

Kyle King:             We’ve been typically focused on we have a couple of different unique programs. What we’ve typically been focused on is building out in an ROTC focus cadet program. Um, and we were doing this one directly at this because it was a natural evolution for us to, and this type of environment. And so we were looking at ROTC cadets and trying to get them quotes deployed before they actually go and deploy because we know a few different things. I had the pleasure of working with 2,500 officers across eight years and from 14 different nations. And it was a great cultural experience to work with that many people and to see how the different dynamics come into play. So we, and I realize that we’re not going to change the DOD institution that said, you know, it’s a huge institution that’s not going to change. But what if we could build in a program where students who are ROTC cadets that are going to be commissioned and in the military would have the opportunity to “deploy” and spend a bit of time with us a semester abroad with us in the field, so to speak.

Kyle King:             And then having a discussion with these international organizations about what it takes to actually function culturally and these type of environments with these differences institutions and how do we all work together to make that happen. And how do you work with your host nation partners? Because we have accepted and we have seen the future is always going to be with the military. It’s going to be by with and through partners, you know, that’s not going to go away anytime soon because of that. And drawing out from that, we started looking at emergency management because of my experience in that field in post-conflict operations and knowing that there are very few, if any programs that appeal to a student that went to works in that, that looks internationally at emergency management and how those types of mechanisms work either from major international disaster response mechanisms or to really rebuilding society post-conflict. It’s such a defined specific area, but it provides tremendous value. So to answer your question, we specifically were looking at students that could directly benefit from that time being abroad. And that’s where we fell to the ROTC cadets initially and now we’ve recently expanded broader into the EM field.

Todd DeVoe:     So I have a fair amount of students that listen to this program and if you’re talking directly to the student, why should they get involved in a program? If not yours, but something like you are.

Kyle King:             That’s a great question. I think that one of the reasons to get involved, and this has been my experience. and of course, you know, well I’d love to hear your thoughts as well, but

Kyle King:             from my experience, we go through our career paths as, as EM Practitioners and we’re going through all these great things because it’s the environment that we quote unquote grew up in in the United States. You build it as a great level of technical expertise, and you were able to go through and, and, and you’re very good within the U.S. system. The real challenge I believe is going internationally and then being able to see what happens when that’s not there, when FEMA is not there, what is the equivalent in another country? And then what do you do when these mechanisms don’t exist? So with insurance doesn’t exist or if, um, you know, if there’s no federal level that doesn’t exist, what if it’s only local at a municipal level and then state level? Right? And so in the context of understanding the complexities of emergency management, I think it’s of tremendous value. And it has been for me to go to an environment where those things don’t exist. So that because when they are not there, then you can see what other people have developed to take their place. So alternatives, solutions, perspectives, and then that is a tremendous learning value from my perspective.

Todd DeVoe:     I agree with you 100%. I think that’s an amazing opportunity if you can take it and to, to go international and to see. And so the serious challenges that are faced and you can come back wherever you go and use those skills and lessons learned and the connections that you learn from things like this to enhance your career number one, and also to enhance your ability to do your job to the residents and citizens that you’re serving or stakeholders whenever you want to add in there, here in the United States or Canada or Australia, for instance, the developed countries. That’s awesome. before we let you go, couple more questions. One is how somebody could get in touch with you or how do they find you?

Kyle King:             yeah, definitely. So, if anybody wants to get in touch with us, first, I’m personally on LinkedIn. Just look for Kyle King, at Capacity Building International, and I’m there. I love LinkedIn. I think it’s a great tool. And then, of course, we have a website just or just Google capacity building international, and that’ll come up on the first page. It should be there, and then I’m more than happy to get in touch with anybody that’s curious about what we’re doing or alternatively if we can help anybody do anything. And so, you know, professional networks are great. We’re more than happy to help if anybody needs some of our,

Todd DeVoe:     all right. Kyle, toughest question of the day. What book, books or publication do you recommend to somebody in the emergency management field?

Kyle King:             well naturally EM Weekly, right? Actually, I just finished a book, which I think is important for many different reasons. So I finished a book called the Culture Code, which is by Daniel Coyle. And that, that was important for me. I think from my perspective for what people needed to extract or take from that is that building high performance teams is often about culture. And there’s been tremendous emphasis on leadership and no, and, and things like that with teams and organizations. But at the end of the day, building a culture within your organization to be a high performance team is something that is going to be tremendous value too. To be able to get two things done professionally and, and to be able to perform at such a high level and really to be able to kind of that trust and safety and security amongst your own team members is going to be vitally important to building a good organization. So, and especially if we look in terms of our own communities, the only people that we’re dealing with. Uh, so there were some pretty good nuggets of information there that I think that emergency managers throughout the United States, we could look at that from the optics. Not only all of our own organizations but also of our communities.

Todd DeVoe:     I liked that a lot actually. It’s cool. If you could speak to every single emergency manager in the world, what would you say to them right now?

Kyle King:             Oh, that’s a good question.

Kyle King:             Oh, let me think about that for a second. so from my perspective and it’s just been from my own personal experience. So the true measure of your expertise is to be able to whittle down all of your programs to the most functional basic core components. So if you can have somebody who’s, you know, 20 years and a technical expert could tell you the inside and out of every single program,

Kyle King:             the real expert, in my opinion, is somebody that is able to go to a different society and what they’re doing and say, listen, all you have to do is take this next step, and you’ll be much better than where you were. So not adding layers of complexity, but understanding the core components of what they’re doing and be able to relay that. So if I’m talking to all emergency managers, that would basically say, be the technical expert, but at the same time understand that the metric for being an international expert is being understood is, is being able to, we’ll down your programs to the the the core basic components and being able to communicate that. So it, it’s a bit of a bell curve. Right. And that’s been my experience that the most successful people are the ones that have been able to do that.

Todd DeVoe:     Well, Kyle’s been a pleasure talking to you this morning, excited about having you on the show, and we should do this some time again.

Kyle King:             Thanks a lot. I really appreciate it. It’s really good talking to yo, and I wish you all the best.







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