In this episode, we interview Kevin Bigelow, who is a former emergency manager for Social Services in Orange County, California. We are going to be discussing persons with mobility and functional needs issues. Kevin comes to us with lots of experience and is a great guy. I actually met Kevin a few years ago when we were working on some projects together through Orange County, specifically with functional needs issues and emergency planning.
Things we talk about in this issue are going to be things you really should think about as you are doing your planning and just through your daily response if you’re a first responder.
Tell me a little bit about yourself, your organization, how you got involved, and what you do?
Sure thing. My name is Kevin Bigelow, and my very small company, which just consists of me, is Kevin Bigelow Training and Consulting. A little bit about me, I am a licensed California psychiatric technician, which most people haven’t heard of. It’s the same licensing board as a licensed vocational nurse.
Some of my experience:
- I worked in mental health for a number of years. I was on the Orange County mental health emergency team, I was one of those people who went out and did the 51/50 evaluations
- I worked for social services. I was a child abuse investigator social worker and then I transferred over to adult protected services, where we looked into abuse and neglect of seniors and people with disabilities. I later became a supervisor there.
- I was then the adult services training coordinator, so I coordinated training for adult protective services and in-home supported services and some organizations like that through the county.
- I did worked as the emergency services coordinator for Social Services Agency in Orange County, that’s where I did a lot of work with the Emergency Operation Center and emergency management.
- I retired in 2011, and began doing some training and consulting work, that’s divided between doing training for adult protective service workers and writing training and e-learnings for them like I used to do; and the other part is consulting related to emergency management, most specifically to inclusive emergency planning, which is emergency planning for everybody, including persons with disabilities and access and functional needs.
- I currently work as a consultant with a group called EAD and Associates, that does inclusive emergency planning and are a really great group of people out of New York.
- I am also a consultant with National Adult Protective Services Association.
So that’s a little abut me.
Awesome! So, a quick question here, what does emergency management look like in the social services space, particularly in the elderly space with the functional needs people, and people that are suffering from dementia and Alzheimer’s?
Well, I think it’s important for people to understand that our society is changing. It’s been changing for a long time as people are living a lot longer and they are experiencing a lot more different kinds of health issues than they use to. The silver tsunami has hit us, which means, all the baby boomers have come of age and are hitting 60 and 65. They have their own set of health issues, not to mention the fact that we have a large disabilities population, people with all kinds of different challenges and what not. We’re seeing a lot more because there’s better biometrics for them, as they can get out in the community, they can communicate better, etc. The current term for this group is persons with disabilities and access and functional needs.
When we are talking about emergency management planning that’s inclusive planning, this is an important group and it’s a really big group. A lot of people think that it’s really small, but in fact it’s up to about 40% of the population because it includes so many different kinds of things. You’ve got people who use wheelchairs to move around; you’ve got people who have to use walkers; you’ve got people with things like cerebral palsy; you mentioned Alzheimer’s disease and dementia and what not, so it’s a whole bunch of different things.
And we know from experience that seniors and persons with disabilities are more seriously impacted in emergency situations, whether that involves evacuations or just shelter- in- place. Medication, specialize equipment, durable medical equipment, are very often not a luxury for these people. These are things they really need to survive and be able to function.
So emergency response with regard to things like emergency management, we can’t really do a one size fits all response any more, especially with the change in the population. In addition, there are a lot of serious illnesses that have spiraled to becoming an epidemic or even to pandemic proportions in the last 20 years or so, with some examples being Alzheimer’s disease and other forms of dementia. I tend to focus on that one a lot because I’ve done a lot of work with Alzheimer’s disease; I’m a volunteer with Alzheimer’s Association and Alzheimer’s Orange County.
Let’s take that as an example: Alzheimer’s disease. It’s just 1 of 40 different types of dementia, but Alzheimer’s disease diagnose make up about 40% of everybody with dementia. Many people think that’s a really small population, so what are we worried about it for? But take Orange County as an example, and this is a two year old statistic so I’m sure it’s low. As of about two years ago, there were about 84,000 people in Orange County alone who were diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease. That’s a big group if you are thinking of planning for an emergency. Whatever your community is, you’re probably going to encounter people with Alzheimer’s disease or dementia.
Kevin, one second. So, 84,000 people were diagnosed with Alzheimer’s or dementia?
Yes., with Alzheimer’s. That’s about a year or two old number, so it’s probably much higher now.
That’s amazing, thinking about the fact that the population of Orange County is only about 3.4 million people.
That’s a significant number of people. So, and this is for full disclosure for everybody, my dad is suffering from dementia. He has not, as far as I know, been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, but he’s definitely in that area. He’s 84 years old and he’s at an assisted living center with my step-mother, and she’s in her 80’s and she has some health problems as well. But if you think about that, that’s a huge number of people. And I know that my dad has sometimes had some issues when we’ve pulled him out of places he’s familiar with, he get’s really nervous and uncomfortable. So what kind of impact does that, if we have to do a massive evacuation say of an area with over 3 million people, that’s 80 some odd thousand people that are going to have some behavior issues possibly, correct?
Correct. It manifests differently with different people, and people can be at different stages of that. I hope your dad doesn’t have Alzheimer’s disease, but it’s difficult to tell which dementia somebody has, but those are going to be folks who will not react like normal people react. We’ve had situations where people with Alzheimer’s disease, when say there’s a fire in their building or their house, rather than evacuating, they become frightened. Their brains don’t work like the rest of our brains, so they might hide in a closet rather than evacuate. We’ve had other situations that I’ve heard about, some specific situations back in Hurricane Katrina, where you could say to a person who has dementia, “Wait right here, don’t go anywhere; we’ll be right back.” You turn around and you could look right back and the person is walking away. You could walk right up to that person and say, “Hey, what are you doing? I told you to wait there,” and they might say, “Who are you? I don’t know who you are.” Their short term memory isn’t working like everybody else, so it presents some special problems for emergency responders and certainly for the people and their families.
I think one of the important things about that, and we can generalize this to persons with disabilities and frail elderly people too, is not that fire departments have whole special Alzheimer’s units or anything like that, but that people need to get a certain amount of education, a certain amount of information about those different groups, so that when they encounter them, they can understand:
- I’ve told this guy over here three times to evacuate.
- We’ve been knocking on doors, but he’s not evacuating, so he’s going to need some more special attention.
- Who can we get involved? Is there somebody else who’s here helping us, or do we need to call somebody else in?
- If we have other groups assisting us with this, maybe we need to notify somebody that this guy is going to need some special attention to try to get him out.
It helps for people to know a little about how that happens, because they think, “Oh the person is just being stubborn; they just don’t want to do this; they just don’t like it.” And if you’re encountering somebody with dementia that may not very well be the case. They really are not tracking what you have to say. Knowing that, Alzheimer’s Orange County has put out a whole list of recommendations for first responders to deal with these people: that you need to look the person directly in the eye; you need to ask them one thing at a time; you may have to give them a few seconds to respond because it takes them longer to process. Only then is it more likely that person will be more cooperative with you. Also, as that person goes off to the shelter, if possible, the shelter needs to know that this person is coming there, otherwise they’re liable to wander away; they get off of the bus or whatever is was, and they don’t remember what’s happening.
I think with those folks, and with people with disabilities in general, we need a little bit more information, and the ideal way to get that information is from those people or people who work directly with them. I understand, I was a county employee for many years and I was a state employee at one point, and I get it. There’s not of extra money, there’s not a lot of extra time, but I think if you had even small amounts of time where you had people come in who worked with folks who had Alzheimer’s, who worked with folks who had mobility issues, folks who were deaf, folks who were blind, just to tell a little bit about that. When you have a situation when you can have someone who is using a wheelchair all the time or who is dependant upon that oxygen all the time, talk a bit on what it’s like for them, I think it will make it easier for emergency responders to know what to do. Because these are the people who cope with this every single day and I think it will be easier for the responders and certainly easier for the person. I’m a big fan of, you hear this from a lot of the advocacy groups, “no planning about us without us.”
As an example, I’m a co-facilitator for a support group for men who are caregivers for people with Alzheimer’s or dementia. I knew some things about Alzheimer’s and dementia from school, but talking to these guys about what they go through, trying to take care of these folks and the challenges and the way that they cope with it, is real different and has been a real learning experience for me. I think that’s true with people with all kinds of disabilities or even or some just frail elderly populations. What works best when you have trouble getting up the steps, getting into your own house? You are trying to get that person out of the bus or even evacuated, what would work best? Who knows better than that person who can say, here’s what works best for me?
I think that’s an important thing. Unfortunately, some of the situations, if you are in emergency management consultant, can lead to a court case. People have complained about it for years, and finally they decide that they’re going to file a suit or maybe a class action suit, and whatever you think, sometimes it is the only course of action that’s left to people. However, the problem with that is it sometimes makes for an adversarial situation: you guys are in the wrong; you’re not doing enough; no, no, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And that’s unfortunate, because sometimes that helps to build that wall between the two groups, and the thing that I think that really needs to happen is to tear down that wall for both sides to be able to learn things from the other side. That takes a little bit of doing.
We were teaching a CERT program one time, the Community Emergency Response Team program, and I there was a young lady in the group. She was in a wheelchair and there was a portion where there’s the mantra of “Do the Greatest Good for the Greatness Number,” and she raised her hand and asks, “Am I part of the greatness number?” It took me back for a second, I was like, wow, that’s a pretty deep question right there, because, do we as first responders and emergency managers, sometimes only focus on those that are able bodied and able to move? What do we do with the people that are stuck in a, I was going to say for a lack of a better term but it’s the real truth, that are stuck in the convalescent homes or what not, that cannot move?
I remember when we had a fire up in San Bernardino County and we responded up there because we were evacuating a convalescent home with people with respiratory issues. We needed a vent bed and everything and we were trying to find places to put these people, and so yeah, these are some real considerations. I know that we push back a little bit on facilities and say, “You need to have a plan and other receiving facilities that can take your patients.” I don’t want to say it’s a cop out because we can’t as county and city and state employees can’t plan for everything, but I think those are things we need to keep in mind. That’s just a little bit of a side note on what we were talking about here today.
Yeah, that fits.
That’s the thing we forget about and until we get pushed in the face with some of these issues. You and I worked on some projects here in Orange County with those mobility issues because of a lawsuit that happened with LA City. Those that are mobility challenged have to come to the table and be part of this conversation.
I agree with you completely. And when you have people who are advocates, and advocates are wonderful people and very important for our system whether they are talking about advocating for people with disabilities or vegetarians or more government or less government or whatever it is, but advocates tend to take kind of an extreme point of view. They tend to be people who are in your face kind of people. That’s what a successful advocate does. But it doesn’t necessarily make a lot of friends, and when you’re pushing, if you’re negotiating, if you’re selling something and I’m buying something, I’ll say, I’ll offer you a dollar, you say, no, no, I want ten dollars, how about two dollars, no how about eight dollars, it’s part of the negotiation process. In one of the court cases that I was involved as a consultant, as they began negotiations with disabilities groups, one of the things they said they wanted was that we provide every person with disabilities in our jurisdiction with a generator. It was completely unrealistic in terms of budget and I said that’s something we really can’t do, I had to explain why that wasn’t something we could do, but I think that’s just part of the process. And then once you get to know people a little bit better, then both sides kind of calm down and then you can get down to work.
I’ll give you an example back when I was the emergency services coordinator for Social Services. I was asked to talk to the in-home supportive services public authority. In case you don’t know what in-home supportive services is, it’s a government program which you can qualify for if you are aging, or blind, or disabled in some way, and they will pay, not a lot of money, but they’ll pay some money for someone to come in and assist you. Very often that’s a family member or neighbor, so these people were the people who oversaw that program and many of them were persons with disabilities themselves. So I went in to talk to them. The concern that many people with disabilities have is that if you are evacuating somebody and you’re not in an absolute life and death situation at that moment, is of leaving behind their electric wheelchair, which is the only way which they move around, or leaving behind their oxygen or their meds or something, and just kind of racing out. We’re really trying to work to plan so we can move some of those things that you really need with you. One lady with disabilities raised her hand and said, “Well, if like, the house is on fire, you’re going to leave the chair and take me, right?” And I said, “Oh I’m absolutely sure that the emergency responders are going to do that.” She got it, whilst as a committee or someone negotiating, she might say, we don’t want anybody not evacuated with their chair if that’s what they need to function.
I remember another lady, I won’t go on and on about the stories, because I can go on forever, but we did a panel designed specifically for people who were seniors and people with disabilities. We had people talk from various groups and fire departments and what not, and one of the ladies that we had talk was from Dayle McIntosh Center in Orange County, which is a terrific place that gives a lot of assistance to people with all kinds of disabilities. She has this really dry sense of humor and also suffered from cerebral palsy, so there were pauses in her speaking, and it was sometimes hard to tell if she was joking or not joking. She was saying, “Yes, I’ve told my caretaker,” she was talking about all the things she arranged with her caregiver about evacuation and what not, and she said, “I’ve told my caregiver, if necessary, to throw me out the window.” And everybody laughed, and she kind of laughed too and said, “You think I’m kidding? I’m not kidding. The house is on fire, and if I can’t get any other way, throw me out the window!” You know these folks one, have a sense of humor, and two, they live with this every day so they have some great ideas. I’m not recommending throwing everybody out the window, but you know, she got it, and I think when you get down to connecting with people, and it’s not always easy, because people, and this isn’t just people with disabilities or frail elderly people, a lot of times want things to change but they aren’t necessarily willing to spend a lot of time coming to meetings or things, just like the rest of us. You have to coax people out a little bit and let them know you really do want to hear what they have to say, but sometimes you have to be honest and say, you know, that’s just not going to be realistic, so what can we do that’s in the middle. We can’t give all of you a generator, so what could we do and what could you do to try to make things better?
The other thing too, that I think is sort of off putting to governments and to emergency responders sometimes, is the feeling that, you just want us to do everything for you, right? Scoop you up and do every single thing for you, and that’s not realistic either for anybody in any circumstance, whether you’re disabled or not. But the opportunity to interface with those people also gives you an opportunity to tell them the same thing all need to hear, which is, you really need to be prepared yourself. You really need to figure out how you are going to get out of the house. What’s the best way to evacuate the house? You really need to have enough water for yourself and to try to keep your medications stocked up so that you have enough. Do you have a half a tank of gas? You know, all the typical stuff we tell people about, and if you get to developing a little bit of a relationship with some of them, then they’ll hear that. Part of the emergency management job is to educate the public, not just always to save the public, but to educate them as well. It’s not easy building that relationship, I know this from some of the cases where it’s a court ordered sort of a thing, that they have to have a meeting or what not, and sometimes it’s like pulling teeth to get people to come from both sides. Sometimes the fire department’s hesitant to be there because they feel like people are going to tell them what to do or they’re going to imply that they’re not doing a good job, and the disabilities folks are the same way; “I’d don’t want to go sit around this room and list to a bunch of government people,” but you kind of need to build that relationship and it’s not always easy but it really pays off.
Do you find that people who do have special needs, whether they’re disabilities and not necessarily talking about mobility issues in general but anybody who has those special things, for instance, kids with asthma; do you find them to be more prepared than the average Joe Citizen? I know that when we’ve taken surveys, specifically in Orange County, and for those who are listening out there, Kevin and I both work in Orange County, so it’s kind of our reference point and I don’t know what it is nationally, but when we did the survey, it was about 1 ½ percent of the people said that they are prepared for 72 hours. That was when we started really putting in a lot effort into preparedness within Orange County, and I don’t know if it’s gone up much further than that since we’ve done that survey. Do you think that the people who do have medical needs or other special needs are better prepared or is it about the same?
Well, I think they are better prepared in some respects short term, because some people have to do that. If you have some real mobility issues, when you’re going shopping or you’re having someone shop for you, you make sure you have all the stuff you need. It’s not easy to race out to the car or run down to the store even if you could drive yourself, it’s an effort to get in and out of the car and what not. So I think they have to deal, not so much emergencies, but personal crises on a daily basis and they are use to planning that. But they fall into the same situation that the rest of us do, of assuming the store will always be there or they can always call somebody if they need that. While they are used to doing some planning for themselves, which some of us don’t, I mean, you can run into Del Taco if you want food or you can run into the store anytime you wanted. Some folks live that way. They don’t do a lot of shopping, they have a credit card they don’t need anything else. I thinks some of the folks with disabilities and some frail elderly folks are used to doing more planning, but they are not necessarily used to the kind of planning you need to be prepared for at least 72 hours, to be there on their own. What is your back up plan if this person can’t come to assist you that day? Who else would you call? You really need to have three people deep for most emergency planning.
Like emergency management planning, the people at your EOC funding dependant, you need to have two to three different people who can fill that slot. People are not used to that planning, and I think they need information about what is needed for that kind of planning. Even though it’s out there, sometimes they don’t necessarily have it and some of the things, a lot of jurisdictions have caught on to this now, they don’t like to think about emergencies and stuff happening. Some folks who have difficulties in say, reading things on the internet unless they are in a particular format they have to be accessible for their screen reader or who have visual problems or not going to be able to read some kinds of stuff that is posted unless it’s in the right format. If you are a person with hearing issues, you might like to hear some more about emergency preparedness, but if it’s not a closed-caption program or if they don’t have an interpreter or somebody there to get that to you, you may not be getting the information.
So it’s a couple of things: one of them is trying to make people aware of the need to prepare, which is for everybody; second is trying to make them aware of the fact that we now know that we have a lot of people who, I keep saying frail elderly people because I know of some elderly people who are older than me who can kick my backside all around the block and are in much better shape than me, but frail elderly people who may need more assistance. The fact is people do want to plan for you, people do have some idea about it, and if you can listen to us and try to access this stuff from us, we want you to prepare too. As an example, the Earthquake Country Alliance has been putting out the Drop, Cover, and Hold On stuff for years, and that’s great stuff; a lot of good information about how to prepare for earthquakes and how to tie stuff down at your house so it’s not falling on your head, and that kind of stuff. They recently released Lock, Cover, and Hold On, which is basically the same thing but for people in wheelchairs. If you are in a wheelchair and your mobility is limited, it’s not really easy to Drop, Cover, and Hold On, so they are saying to Lock that wheelchair up tight, Cover, Hold On – try to put something over your head or your arms over your head in case there is going to be things falling from the ceiling. And I think that if people with disabilities know that, that now there is some planning going on with input from people like themselves, then they want to listen more and then hopefully they’ll start to get more prepared, like all of us need to be. And I think we are headed in that direction, but it’s a slow process, and funding is limited. People are like “hey, I already have lots to do?” How am I going to reach out to these new people because you are going to encounter them all the time and you need to know what to do.
We are doing this active shooter training at one of the universities and one of the advocates from the Dayle MacIntosh Center was there. She is blind and she has her dog with her and we’re going through the program and at the end of it, she comes over to me and says, “I’m pretty much toast, aren’t I?” and I asked why she would say that. She said, “Because I really rely on somebody else to get me out. If everyone is running away from a shooter, are people going to help me?” I had said that I couldn’t answer that to be honest, but I would hope they would. I really do. I think most people have it within them to help. I told her that I was glad she was there taking the training. It’s a tough question: will other people grab you and help you? She said, “Well, I’m kind of resigned to the fact that this is what it is.” Again, I would hope that people would help, but I can’t guarantee, and that’s one of those things I look at with Katrina and the larger issues. Do we have enough people? We know that 95% of all rescues in a disaster happen from neighbors. Do we have these neighborhood networks? I think that’s one of the things I try to tell people about, like the Neighbor 4 Neighbor program, or the Neighborhood Watch program. Know your neighbors and make a friend and understand the needs of the people around you, because it’s really going to come down to that. I know a lot of times, people with mobility issues are shut-ins, so what do we do with those people who can’t go out and make friends? What do you recommend for us, as emergency managers to reach out to them to get them involved in the community?
Well, for the shut-ins, that’s the problem in trying to reach them, how are you going to be able to reach them? I think that when information gets put out, whether that’s a press release or whether that’s something that gets sent out to the community, you try to make sure that people are aware that it’s for the whole community and try to encourage them to be involved. Sometimes that’s going to work and sometime’s it’s not going to work. From my point of view, I think what needs to happen, as we know that’s it’s people, not just emergency responders, but people helping people, is to include stuff about those who are seniors, who are person’s with disabilities, in emergency training. My mother, God rest her soul, who was a wonderful, kind person. She grew up in a little different world than we are in now. We would be in a store, and there was a kid or someone there with a disability, whether they were with crutches or in a wheelchair, if I was looking at them, she would say to me, “Don’t stare, you’ll make them uncomfortable.” And she really believed that. I think that a lot of people are uncomfortable who have not been around people with disabilities, who haven’t been around people who use a wheelchair, or who have a white cane, or whatever it is. We tend to shy away from them, partly because we are afraid of doing the wrong thing, and partly because we are a little bit afraid of having that happen to us. If we have to admit it’s happening, we have to admit it could happen to us, that some of us will loose our sight, some of us will not be able to walk without assistance later on.
When it’s in an emergency situation like that, I think that sometimes people with no content, let’s take example of this lady who is visually impaired, with no previous interaction,, they are not going to think about them. But if they had somebody with some disabilities in the classes they took where people talked about it, then they might feel more comfortable to say, “Hey, I’m getting out. I’m talking you by the elbow. Let’s go! We’re going right now.” Or, “There’s a big table over here. Get down behind the table right now. We’re getting out and we’re going to let people know you’re injured in here,” or something like that. Like you say, it’s going to be people helping other people. If you’re not used to talking to anybody with a disability, you’re not going to do it, or you’re going to be less likely to go up and say. “How are you doing in there? I know that you need to use a walker, and I know it’s been flooding here a lot, are you okay in your home?” If you are uncomfortable talking to people, you are probably not going to ask and sometimes that’s when things go really wrong. Then the paramedics are there or somebody else and you think, gee, I wish I had known that she wasn’t okay. Well, how do you know that? You knock on the door and ask if they are alright.
Change is a constant in our lives and adapting to those changes is not necessarily easy and we know that frail elderly folks or people with disabilities are more disproportionally affected by emergencies and we just need the ability to adapt. And sometimes some are more adaptable than others, but we need to prepare and build relationships and accept that we are all living longer and that’s a tremendous blessing. But for some of us, we will have visual problems, dementia problems, and ignoring that isn’t going to make it go away. Learning about it may make us feel better about it, less afraid, and more likely to reach out to other people when we have those emergencies. That’s my mantra about it, to learn a little bit more about each other and we’ll all be better off.
Very cool. I have a funny story. We were doing a CERT program at Leisure World in Seal Beach, a large retirement community, where we of course, had older people in the class. There was this one older lady who was 94 or 95 years old, who replied to the question of why they were there attending the class and what they wanted out of it. She was there because she wanted to be able to help her old people. My thought was that if you are helping your old people, how old are they? What she was saying is that she is one of the ones that was spry and could still drive and she wanted to help others in the community that had issues. It was very cool to see people wanting to help each other.
I think that at the end of the day, whether it’s able body people in the community or living in assisted or retirement communities, it’s about building community. When we talk about building community as emergency managers, we have to include everybody. That is the lesson.
A future podcast will be with a gentlemen in Los Angeles who works with the homeless issues and their mobility problems. When talking about mobility issues, we usually mean those in wheelchairs and with walkers, but we are also talking about those who do not have the physical ability to drive a vehicle or get out of an area. It’s a really big topic, especially for emergency managers. When talking about one on one movement, it’s easy, but mass movement becomes a bigger issue.
So one last question: what do you see the future of emergency management in the adult protective services world? If you were someone who wanted to get involved with and has an interest in social needs in the health department, how would you get involved with that?
It depends if you are looking for a job or looking to volunteer. If looking for a job, there are a lot of emergency management classes that you can take. I think that if you have an interest in helping those with disabilities (disabilities access function people) getting information about the various disabilities, such as learning American Sign Language or services for the blind, that would get you a leg up. There are programs available, though there are emergency managers who are there strictly on their experience. If you can seek the regular paths to emergency management, great. If you have an interest in disabilities access function needs, include some other training, class, or opportunities to help put you in a specialized niche.
If you want to volunteer, I think CERT programs are great, for the seniors take the classes too and have a great wealth of knowledge. They know what to tell you regarding someone with difficulty walking and other issues. I, myself, worked for adult services in Orange County and found that very rewarding. In my opinion, and I don’t think all social services programs agree with me, but I think adult protective services will have more of a role in emergency management as time goes on, because they are so familiar with that population. There are not a lot of government agencies that are familiar. You can seek a career, but if you lean more and start building those contacts with the disabilities community, you will be way ahead when you get to your job. Also, there are tons of volunteer opportunities, so many organizations that want help and are a great learning experience.
That’s some awesome information and I appreciate you taking the time out for being here. Anything else you would like to share with us? Any contact information?
Well, my email address is email@example.com. If there are any questions you have, I’ll try answer them for you. Thank you and I think this is another good example of people opening up to this subject, and I’m really happy about that, so thank you.