EP 37 Transforming Leadership with L. David Marquet

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EP 37 Transforming Leadership with L. David Marquet

[TODD DEVOE] David, welcome to EM Weekly. How are you doing today?

[DAVID MARQUET] Good! Thanks, Todd, thanks for having me on your show.

[TODD DEVOE] Sir, can you give us a quick background about your navy experience, and how you got to the Santa Fe?

[DAVID MARQUET] Yeah, sure. So, I grew up in an environment when the political leadership was knowing and telling, or maybe even all-knowing and all-telling. In other words, the captain, or the leader, was supposed to know all the answers, was the source of decision-making knowledge in the organization. And also, generally, the source of making things happen. And I carried that with me, and I was sort of scary good at that for a while. So, the navy promoted me, and I was slighted the commander of the submarine. But at the last minute, after twelve months of preparing for one ship, I got vectored off on to a different submarine. And it was a different kind of submarine. So, it threw me in this really uncomfortable position of not knowing every detail, not knowing every button, even though that’s what I normally would have been used to. And my experience was, I was forced into, basically, not giving orders. I made a deal with my crew, I said, look, I’m never gonna give you guys an order because if I give you guys an order and you guys follow it, it might not be right. And the organizational tenancy is still to follow the orders of the captain, and that will result in a bad outcome. So, we have to break this mold, and the way to break out of it is not for me to give better orders, which is the normal approach, but simply for me to stop giving orders. But on your side, you’re gonna say “I intend to.” You’re not gonna come to me with, “Hey, here’s a problem, here’s what I want to do, here’s what I want permission to do.” Not even that. Just, “Here’s what I intend to do unless you stop me. And let me explain why.” So, that was the transition that we made, and in the short run, we had this amazing turnaround, where we went from the bottom to the top of the fleet, in terms of keeping people in the navy, and morale, and how the ship performed. But the really cool thing was what happened over the next ten years. More officers got picked to be captains of their own submarines from this (inaudible), from this group that I was with than any other submarine that I know of. And that’s really, I think, the power of the story. Which is, when you let people make decisions, you’re growing them as leaders, and you’re giving up a little bit of short-term production, perhaps; but you’re building a much more resilient organization that’s developing leaders, and the ability to make decisions, versus just getting stuff done all day long. So, that’s what the story is about. Is exactly how we did that, what we said to each other, how we changed the language on the submarine.

[TODD DEVOE] Now, for those of you who don’t understand the navy and naval traditions, (inaudible) back to the book and the movie “Master and Commander.” Traditionally, that’s the way ships are run. The captain says what it is, and that’s what’s gonna happen, and you (inaudible) and carry on.


[TODD DEVOE] That’s the way it was. So, what David did with his ship, with his boat, was kind of turn that upside down, so we’ll talk a little bit more about that. So, in your book, a couple of things that I really find interesting. And one was, that first captain that gave you the idea or the concept of “I intend to.” Tell me a little bit about him and how that worked out.

[DAVID MARQUET] So, one of the things I always say is that you know, none of my great ideas were actually my great ideas. There were things that I heard and experienced from other leaders. And so, on my very first submarine, the first captain I had was a very traditional, top-down, master-and-commander type of submarine captain. And the kind that’s portrayed in 100 movies. And then, he was replaced by a guy, and I had the experience where, as a young officer, I wanted to do something with the ship that required the captain’s permission. We were on a training, we were off the East Coast of the United States. So, this was back in the 80’s, so we were sort of in this Cold War thing. And what I wanted to do would have given away the position of the ship, but because we were off the coast of the United States, it didn’t really matter. But it was a great training. And so, I called the captain and said, “This is what I request permission to… blah, blah, blah.” And he says, “Why don’t you just tell me what you intend to do and tell me why it’s the right thing?” And that was like, a breath of fresh air. And so, forever after that, my remaining time on the submarine, which wasn’t that long, I’d be saying: “Ok, here is my plan, this is what I intend to do, and here is why it’s the right thing, and here is why it’s safe.” And he said, “Ok, very well.” And he would walk away. And it was awesome, and then we would go do all these awesome cool things that normally you’d have to get permission for. And I saw how that lit a spark in me, and I saw how it lit a spark in the people around me. Because then they would come to me with ideas, “Hey!” I was like, Mikey, you know? “Have Marquet tell the captain we’re gonna do this,” you know? And then I would formulate a plan. And there was this sort of surge in thinking, and involvement, and engagement. It was like this window that opened to this bright, spring, beautiful day. But then it closed again, because when I transferred off the ship, I was thrown back into much more traditional command and control models. But I always carried that vision with me, hoping that, someday, I could be that kind of a leader. And that second captain, his name was Mark Goliath, and I really owe a lot to the seed that he created in me.

[TODD DEVOE] The Santa Fe was really your second crack at the idea of transformational leadership. You tried it on one other submarine prior, but it just didn’t work out. What do you think the difference was between the Santa Fe and your other boat?

[DAVID MARQUET] Well, I tried it as an engineer. So, I was in the middle of the organization, it was a failing organization, it was, you know, depressing, there was low morale, performance was not very good, and I came in with the bright idea of giving the team a lot of authority, and it was a miserable failure. And there were a couple of reasons. Of course, at the time, I blamed everybody else. But I think I was part of the problem, if not maybe the main contributor. And later, on the Santa Fe, when we did it again, as a captain, it was easier for me to control the system. When I said like, the leader controls the structure and defines how the team interacts. And that allows the leader to release control of the details of what the team does. And as an engineer, it was much harder for me to do that than as a captain. But the second thing is, in order to give control to the team, you need to have two things in place, which are technical competence and organizational clarity. And as the engineer, I neglected spending enough time on building the technical competence of the team. Now, most people will say, “Gee, you’ve got a team that’s running a nuclear reactor. Aren’t they technically competent?” And the answer is like, yes, at a basic level, they are. If you say, “Hey, start up the reactor, start this turbine.” They know how to do that. But in terms of putting things together and sequencing, and saying, “Ok, when do we need to start the turbine? Are we ready to start the turbine? Have we met all retest for starting the turbine?” They had gaps. So I needed a team to think at the next higher level. When I got to the Santa Fe, we did much better at that, and we didn’t repeat the error. We spent a lot of time on technical competence. We spent many hours in training and doing training and learning behaviors. Even when we were just standing and watching, we would be learning. We were always running these experiments on learning. And that was one of the big differences. So, a) it was my ability to control the system; and b) the dedication to learning, the time spent on learning and training.

[TODD DEVOE] So, back to the Santa Fe. So, you get to the Santa Fe, and you’ve talked about the other boat that you were supposed to be assigned to, you knew this thing up and down, back and forth, you could run this thing by yourself if you knew. You get to the Santa Fe, and you know nothing about it. And then you give an order. And the order was technically wrong, right?


[TODD DEVOE] You didn’t have the speed that you wanted it to go to.


[TODD DEVOE] And your team tried to fulfill the order, and they were like, ok, maybe you knew something more about the boat than they did, some sort of top-secret information. Is that kind of where things kind of went to where you were like: ok, this is where I need to do this. Did that give you the clue to that? Or tell me a little bit about that story and how that impacted you.

[DAVID MARQUET] Yeah. So, the first order I get… so, I had two weeks, I took over the submarine. I mean, the fundamentals of submarining were the same, but the minutia, the button pushing, these details, were different. And I gave an order; basically, it was like shifting into fifth gear on a car that only had four gears. But the officer repeated the order, and the error was cascading through the organization. And so, one of the junior people in the organization said, “well, we only have, in this case, we only have four gears, so we can’t shift into fifth gear.” And this really brought me back on my heels, because in the past, whenever I made those orders, it was like, the way I talked myself out of that was, give better orders. But I couldn’t conceive of any way of doing that at any kind of a short time frame, because I had two weeks to take over. And so, we brainstormed with the team, and I said, you know, really, the only other choice is, just to stop giving orders. Which is what we settled on, we made an agreement. I would stop giving orders and the team would stop asking permission. Instead, they would tell me what they intend to do, and I still had the ability to stop them and ask questions, and have conversations, which was very important, because it was still pre-decisional. But, unless I said no, they were gonna do it. Versus, the normal thing is to get permission. Unless you say yes, it’s a stop. So, in permission-based organizations, the bias and the default is stop. And in (tent)-based organizations, the default is “go”.

[TODD DEVOE] That’s really important to understand. And it kind of comes down to what, as a core man, when I was assigned to the Marine Core, we learned a lot about commanders and tents. So, it comes back down to commanders and tent, right?

[DAVID MARQUET] Right. So, there’s two legs that this thing sits on. One is technical competence, which we talked about. And two, is you could call commanders and tent, which we call clarity. What are we trying to achieve? If your team doesn’t know what you’re trying to achieve, you can’t let them make decisions about it, because they’ll all make willy-nilly decisions, they won’t be aligned. You won’t get unity of effort. But if you understand commanders and tent, clearly, then you get both distributed decision-making and unity of effort. And I’m not talking about a whole bunch of wishy-washy “let’s have meetings” and you know, analysis paralysis. When I say decisions by the team I don’t necessarily mean the whole team gets together and makes a decision. Like, it’s a decision by a member of the team. You know, the engineer makes a decision, the (inaudible) officer makes the decision, the operations officers makes the decision, by a team member, and then they come forward. So, we were much better, we made decisions faster and better than other organizations, which allowed us to get more work done, more accurately, than other submarines, which resulted on people feeling really good about their work and developing the ability to lead, essentially. So, that’s where it comes back to. Now, the typical objection is, well yeah, that’s nice, pat me on the head for calm days and when there’s no crisis. But in a crisis, which is what your people deal with all the time, we go back to command and control. And I would tell you that this is where I would really like to provoke some thinking, because my experiences, even in a crisis, you can do it this way and it actually works even better. And we had experiences in the way we fought fires. Where, for example, in the old way, we would direct someone to take a fire hose to a location. And in a new way, we would just provide information, the teams would figure out what they needed to do, because they understand the clarity of getting the fire out. That was what was important. So, you don’t do this, you don’t shift in the middle of a crisis. But if you talk about how the team operates, and I’m sure the best EMT teams operate basically like this. They don’t wait for someone in charge to tell them: oh, I need you to set up a ladder, I need you to get the saw, I need you to start an IV. They’re just communicating as they’re doing it. I see this, I’m starting an IV. I’m getting the paddles out. I’m setting up a ladder. I’m getting the following tools. My plan is this, this, this, and they’re just stating these things and there’s this rich communication while the team is taking action. That’s kind of the picture of what we had on the submarine.

[TODD DEVOE] Right, yeah. You’re absolutely correct about that. I wanna talk a little bit about your new take on discipline, and why it was this way. So, two stories I liked from the book, is a junior sailor, one of the guys makes a mistake on the pier, which could have detrimentally make some big issues. But at the end of the day, for lack of a better term, there’s no harm, no foul. And how you handled the captain’s mass. And again, for everybody who doesn’t understand navy, captain’s mass is a non-traditional punishment to where you can get everything from reduction in your rank to restriction to the boat, to you know, whatever the captain decides at that point. So, talk about that story with that junior sailor and that mistake, and how you guys handled it.

[DAVID MARQUET] So, this really was a tough day for me, because I’d been in command less than a month, we’d done a few things and things were… so, there was sort of this brightening on the horizon, where things, you could see things were starting to get better. And then I just got kicked in the teeth with this sailor, who shut a breaker. We were connecting these big short power cables to the submarine. So, these are heavy, 440-volt, 400-amp cables, that take about 20 guys to carry. And you plug them in when you come ashore, so you can shut down the reactor. Anyway, in this process, at the end of this procedure, you’re supposed to shut the breakers, obviously. But you only can do it when things are all connected. And things were connected, but we had these tags hanging that said, “Don’t shut the breaker until you’ve cleared this tag.” The next step was to clear the tag and then shut the breaker, but the sailor got ahead of himself without really thinking, even though the tag was there, he shut the break. And this is a big, big, big, no-no. It’s basically intentionally defeating safety, but. So, the next day, I get everybody together, and I had to invite my boss, my boss’ boss, and the monitoring team, and the safety, inspectors, all these people. They were crammed into the wardroom for this big investigation. An at the far end of the table was the poor officer who had done this offense. And I’m looking down the table, and this is the first big sort of screw up that I’m, you know, in charge of. I look down the table, I look at him, he’s looking at me, and I say. “Ok, tell us what happened.”

[TODD DEVOE] More on the fate of that petty officer when we come back from our quick commercial break. Welcome back from that quick break. Thank you all for listening, and we’ll continue the story now.

EM Weekly EP 37, L. David Marquet, Turn the Ship Around[DAVID MARQUET] And he says, “Captain, I’m not sure why I did it. The tag was there. In retrospect, it was in plain sight, I just wasn’t thinking. I moved the tag aside, knowing that the next step for me was to shut the breaker, and I shut the break.” And there was sort of this collective gasp. But what he said was incredibly valuable. He didn’t say, “Oh, I must have fallen on the ground, or I couldn’t see it.” Anything like that. He took responsibility for his action, and he also gave us insight into what was screwed up. He said, “I wasn’t thinking, I was just in this automatic action.” So, I said, “That’s great, thank you very much, you can leave.” And there was this gasp, because everyone expected me, like you said, to fine him, or bust him, reduce in in rank, give him a demotion. But my feeling was he was trying to do the right thing, and we, as leaders, owed it to the team to create an environment where they could be at their best, a way of interaction. And so, we said, we need to inject ways where thinking happened. Because he told us the problem was thinking. Because too often, we’re just in “get it done” mode. We’re in production mode. We move from test to test to test without thinking, instead of, “am I in the right task, even?” And so, we talked about that, and what we came up with that day, was a thing called deliberate action. Which is, when you reach out to shut a breaker, start a pump, or insert an IV, you pause just before the acting, you vocalize it. “Inserting an IV into the left arm.” And then you do it. And that pause allows you to reflect for a moment, just a moment. Hey, am I sure this is the right thing to do? But it also, because you’re saying it out loud, allows the team member on to your left or to your right, to say: hands off. You know, whatever, there’s a problem. And so, that made a huge difference, because later, the team was inspected and got the highest score that the inspection team had a record of for operating the ship. And I asked them, and I said, to what do you attribute this miraculous result? And he said, “Well, you guys try to make as many mistakes as anybody else, but the mistakes never really happen because of this pause effect.” And so, there just were no mistakes. And we always think, “oh, if I pause things will take so much longer.” That’s not the case. It takes just half a second here and there, but that is so much… that is a tax I’m willing to pay for the ability to reduce errors from some number to some incredibly small number.

[TODD DEVOE] Right. That’s an amazing story, actually. And I really do get lot out of that one. The other one is that you had a sailor who, for whatever reason, a watch bill was terribly disadvantage to him, and he was up for… I think it was 36 hours if I remember correctly.


[TODD DEVOE] And he’s just like, “I’m done, I’m going to bed.” And again, this is for the people who are not in the military. Leaving your post, number one, is huge. You’re gonna get in trouble. Leaving your post and then leaving your ship without permission is punishable by jail. So, talk about that story and how you were able to turn that into a positive thing.

[DAVID MARQUET] So now, we’re about three months into the journey, and we were stationed in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and we had driven to San Diego. So, it’s a lot of open ocean, takes about a week to get there. And we get to San Diego, we’re gonna do some fleet exercises in San Diego. We pull into the pier, we tie up the ship, we put the brow across, and this guy basically says, “F– this,” and leaves the ship without permission. Like you said, that’s a huge deal. He’s gone UA, Unauthorized Absence, or AWOL. And so, my guys wanted to arrest him. And by this point, I was beginning to question everything I knew about leadership. All the models and all the processes that I thought about leadership, that you gotta tell people what to do, you gotta tell them in a clear way that you got… you know, everything that I had learned, I was starting to re-think and question. So, I was re-thinking the response to this. And I asked them questions about… one of the tools was the imaginary camera, and I would pause time, then we’d run time backwards. So, I said, imagine it was a day ago, and I was just following the sailor around with a camera, what would I see? And they described, and there was no sleep. And I said, when did he get sleep? “Oh, it was like a day and a half ago, but you know, be tough, man up, whatever.” You have another cup of coffee. Anyway, I thought, you know, why is that? “Well, he’s standing watch (inaudible)”, means six on, six off, as you know, right? Versus, as you got more senior in the organization, there were 6 on and then they had 12 off. 6 on, 18 off. 6 on, 24 off. So, they were getting plenty of sleep. But the guys down at the bottom of the organization were getting hammered. And I had talked about taking care of your people, and this was not what I imagined it meant. So, long story short, I said, well, where is he? Thinking he’s gone off to Mexico, right? But no, he went on base, and he got a room with the barracks on base and was sleeping. So, I said, well, this is not a guy who really wants to go AWOL. He just wants some sleep. So, I asked my guys, well, how about getting him? “No, we should arrest him.” I said ok, fine. I’ll get him. So, as a captain, not something you want to normally do, I charge over to the barracks, find the guy in his room, I say, “Look, what you did was wrong, but what we did was also wrong. We didn’t treat you right. And you come back to the ship tomorrow, when (inaudible) expires, we’re gonna forget it. You don’t come back, we’re gonna hunt you down until the end of time, and we’re gonna hammer you.” So, no better friend, no worse foe. So, sure enough, of course, the next day he shows up and everything is fine. And I realize that me talking about taking care of our people had no impact on the behavior of the organization. So, I made a rule, which was, you couldn’t be in a better rotation than the people who worked for you. Your life couldn’t be any better than them. And so, if the people who work for you were six on, six off, that meant you were six on and six off. And that meant your boss was six on and six off. And so, what happened was, everybody was reset to the level of the lowest sailor, rank-wise. Well, there was a lot of grumbling, and people were just frankly pissed off about that. But I was pretty firm, and I said, well then, solve your life, fix your life, don’t be a victim. You know, fix it. And so, they very quickly figured out how to get the guys at the bottom three sections, and then even four sections. So, pretty soon, the whole ship was four sections. It was very equitable, felt like a team, but it was better than most all the other submarines, which were basically on three-section. And so, we were given time back. I never needed to tell the crew, I never needed to give a lecture on taking care of your people, because now, the organization was designed where they couldn’t help but take care of their people. And then, they were like: oh, now I see what you mean! And so, as leaders, like, the lesson to me is, we act our way into thinking, not think our way into action. So, normally, we say, “I’m gonna give you a lecture on taking care of your people. I’m gonna give you a lecture on empowerment. I’m gonna give you a lecture on collaboration.” That is a waste of time. And just actually pisses people off, in my experience, right? Because I don’t need a lecture. What I need is a tool, or a vehicle, or a mechanism that’s actually gonna take care of our people, or it’s going to empower. So, you know, another way is saying I intend to. We never said, thou shall be empowered. What does that mean? So, just say these words, “I intend to.” Ok, great. And then six months later, I feel empowered. That’s how it works. So, say, you know, have the watch bill be equitable, and then six months later, it feels like team. We act our way into thinking.

[TODD DEVOE] Those minor decisions, you know, altogether because of a major one. But it really impacted our entire boat, where your advancement rates went up, the sailors’ morale was up, your retention of re-enlistment went up. All that went up, based upon that idea of giving back just a little bit, back to the crew and creating that atmosphere of collaboration. Am I reading that wrong?

[DAVID MARQUET] No, that’s exactly right. So, Google did a study and said, what’s the biggest determinant of team performance? The variable that has the biggest predictor on team performance? And it’s how the team interacts. And all the time, I hear leaders say, “I don’t wanna get in the weeds.” Well, then you’re not being a leader, ok? You just wanna float around on the clouds, you have no idea what’s going on. Getting in the weeds, that’s where the magic happens. Understanding what do people exactly say. So, we say something, and like here, in a workshop. One of the workshop things we do is, we say, someone comes up to you and says, “I intend to turn left.” Or you know, whatever. I intend to start an IV on the left arm. And you think that’s the wrong thing to do. The weeds are, what are the next words that come out of your mouth. That’s where leadership lives. Like saying, well, we’re gonna build a culture where people can speak freely. That’s floating on the clouds. The hard thing – cause anyone can say that. And everyone does. The hard thing is, how do you bring that to life? How does that sound in a meeting? Am I behaving in a way that actually makes it easy for people to speak up and speak their mind? And they call me out and say I’m wrong. That’s where the needy-greedy of leadership lives. And if you’re not willing to live there, good luck to you.

[TODD DEVOE] That’s so true.

[DAVID MARQUET] That’s brutal, I know. I mean, look, it’s not everything; you gotta have a good strategy, you gotta be making the right product, and stuff like that.


[DAVID MARQUET] But if you want to build a high-performing team, this is where I would, like… a lot of people I see, we have an inordinate amount of energy and time and money spent on recruiting, and then we neglect how people talk to each other. It doesn’t make any sense.

[TODD DEVOE] Right. Yeah, I mean, the leadership that I learned, and I still use today, was when I was in the navy. And a couple of things that I learned, specifically, was one, never tell somebody something that you would not to yourself.


[TODD DEVOE] And the second thing too is like, always take care of your troops first. And so much so that, as a core man, again, I did most of my time in the marine, so the boat knowledge is a little bit different for me. But we always had our junior marine and sailor eat first. So, E-1’s went first, and you know, the higher you were, the last you went. And sometimes, you had the worst pickings of the pot, but that was the way it was.


[TODD DEVOE] I think that’s really important for people to understand.

[DAVID MARQUET] Yeah, leaders eat last. My friend, Simon Sinek’s got a book, Leaders Eat Last, and so… leaders also speak last. So, they let the team hatch things out, and as they make a decision, they speak at the end. Because once the leader speaks, everyone kind of know what the right answer is, and they all sort of line up there. Or at least they say they’re gonna line up there. So, you kind of squoosh the conversation at that point.

[TODD DEVOE] Yeah, let’s talk about that for a second. Because yeah, you’re right; and that’s one of the things that I learned too, is when we do roundtable and I’m in charge, I definitely go last. And that’s because I do want to hear the other person. But I never thought about the fact that they would just fall in line with what I said. Is that what you did in the wardroom as well?

[DAVID MARQUET] Well, yeah. So, most meetings are run in a way that reduces viability and makes it hard for people to speak up. Because we talk about it, and then we vote. And the vote tends to be binary. Hey, we’re thinking about buying a new truck. Ok, great. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, what features do we want? We want this feature. Ok. Let’s talk about it. Blah, blah, blah. Ok, everybody vote, do we want that feature or not? Thumb up, thumb down. So, it’s binary public voting after a discussion. That tends to reduce the scent and the ability for people to talk. So, the discussion is going to be handicap, because we haven’t identified the quiet person who thinks differently. So, what you really wanna do is vote first. And don’t vote binary, but vote in a probabilistic way. So, how enthusiastic are we about…? Or how important is this option on that truck? How important is this option? How important is it to have an office camera? You know, whatever happens to be. I had some fun with the fire station recently, where they were showing me their truck. How important is it to have, you know, recharging connections? Or the air models, or the battery things? So, now people can vote, and the purpose of the voting is to expose the outliers. So, we say, you know, we use cards. The cards go 1, 5, 20, 50, 80, 95, 99. It’s 1%, 5%, 20%, from the extreme. Either 0 or 100, and then 50. So, the other seven cards, and I can slide it out. Now, what you’re looking for is, like, everyone is putting out, you know, 95, 99. And then you’ve got one person who puts out a 20. That’s the person you wanna hear from. Because they think or see differently than the group, and we really wanna give them or listen their perspective or whatever their opinion is. Now, you may still include the feature, but you may change the way it’s introduced in the machine, or maybe not. Maybe they’re actually the one who’s got the right thinking and everyone else is wrong. The first person who said, “The water in Flint, Michigan is poisonous” was the outlying opinion, but turned out to be right. So, the idea is when you run your meetings, vote first, expose the outliers, and then embrace the outliers, let those people talk. Because what will happen is, that will get the quiet person who actually sees something that the rest of us don’t see, it will allow them to express their opinion, and then we’ll all smarter for it.

[TODD DEVOE] Yeah, there’s that a lot, too. Some of the meetings that you go to, we do the roundtable, anything for the good of the group, a lot of people don’t say anything. And then, after the meeting is over, we’re walking in the hallway to get a cup of coffee, then they start complaining about this and that, and other things.


[TODD DEVOE] I always wondered why people…

[DAVID MARQUET] Right. Right. And we can blame them, and it is bad behavior. I will even always say, if you don’t speak up in the meeting, you don’t have the right to complain afterwards. But there’s really an obligation on the leaders to structure the meeting in a way that speaking up is easy to do. Because we all know that there’s an inhibition to speaking up if the group is going in one direction, and more so, if the leader is going that direction. So, our job as leaders, is making it easy for people to speak up.

[TODD DEVOE] So, thank you so much for this inside information, and I could talk to you all day. I know you gotta run, you’ve got something coming up here in a little bit, but I do have one last question for you, and it’s a tough one. So, I’m recommending right now, your book. And as a matter of fact, I’m actually using your book as one of my books in my class I teach on leadership, so I think it’s that important. But what books do you think are great for somebody who is in emergency management who is looking to do transitional leadership?

[DAVID MARQUET] Here’s what I would recommend. So, like I mentioned, Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek. It talks about the chemicals that are going on inside our bodies; Mindset, by Carol Dweck, where she talks about having a sort of growth or learner’s mentality to life; a book I enjoyed recently is called Black Box Thinking, by Matthew Syed, it talks about error propagation and creating organizations that are better at reducing errors than others. So, that’s three to get you started.

[TODD DEVOE] Cool, awesome, I do appreciate that. The reason why I ask this question is that I think that reading is still one of the best ways to absorb information and be able to find ways to implement new and better ideas. So, that’s why I ask this question to all of my guests. Thank you so much for your time, is there anything else you’d like to say before you leave?

[DAVID MARQUET] I just appreciate what everybody is doing. I mean, that’s a tough, tough job, but you’re helping people, you’re saving lives, and you’re making the world a better place. That’s what’s all about. So, thank you for that.



Amazon (Turn the Ship Around!)

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/davidmarquet

Twitter: @ldavidmarquet

Email: chuck@turntheshiparound.com


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