How to Enhance Your Training and Exercises

Show Sponsor
Show Sponsor
Show Sponsor
Show Sponsor
Show Sponsor

Welcome to EM Weekly, and I’m your host, Todd DeVoe, and our guest today, believe it or not, is not me Todd DeVoe, but I guess is my Doppelganger type-thing, Todd DeVoe. I’m Todd T. DeVoe, and this is Todd W. DeVoe. So, Todd, welcome to EM Weekly, how are you doing today?

[INTERVIEWEE] Well, I’m very good, Todd. Thank you for inviting me, I appreciate it.

[TODD] So, Todd, tell me a little bit about yourself, your background, and like… how you got into emergency management, and into disaster response and what not.

[INTERVIEWEE] Well, absolutely! Thank you! Well, I joined the navy in 1981 to go see the world, and I did… a 26-year career. I ended up working with nuclear weapons when I was younger, and in 1987 I earned my instructor credentials through the navy. After that, I volunteered for a program called Explosive Ordnance Disposal, part of the… part of the navy, part of the special operations for the United States Navy. I went on to a few EOD detachments, so in Hawaii, California. Made it all the way up to E8, as an enlisted man, and I was up for 89, and I decided to take a    wager at chief officer, and I was fortunate enough to get selected for that as well. So, I did a couple of tours out in Asia for two years, and then I came back just a few months before 9/11. I took a job as the assistant training officer at EOD training evaluation in San Diego, California. So I was about 4 years there, 3 and a half years there, as assistant training officer, and readiness improvement officer. Our mission at the time was to prepare deployment of EOD teams to go overseas and fight the new war. And in doing that, I established a best EOD combat skills training facility in California, a little area called Darwin Wash, that lasted from about 2004 to 2006. So I retired out there as a director of training. Moved into civilian life, and if you listeners are familiar with that, it comes to a screeching halt. Everything slows way down when you step out of the uniform. What I did after that, was I worked as a defense contractor, and took a job at the Great Lakes again, as the navy region Midwest branch head for requirements and readiness. Me and other folks on a team put together a training and exercise program for the sewer response plan, which was coming out of naval installations at the time. Did that for a few years, actually for a year and a half, and I kinda got recruited away to work for navy Madison, for the emergency management program, where again, I built a training and exercise program for the enterprise. That lasted about six years, until 2014. As the war started waddling down, of course, so does contract and money, so I left that. I was fortunate enough to be able to stand up a consulting business, Twisted Aspen Consulting, during that time. Since then, I’ve been doing some part time teaching for an organization called Cubic Global Defense, in support of the Defense Threat Reduction Agency program, called CP2, and as a matter of fact, I’m headed over to Europe by the end of the week, to the Ukraine, to provide some training for some of the Ukraine forces.

[TODD] Oh, wow! Yeah, it’s getting kinda hot over there, yeah.

[INTERVIEWEE] Oh, yeah! They’ve had some troubles on the East side of Ukraine, with Russia, but it’s relatively safe other than that. But we have with our state department, we have some big plans to counter weapons of mass destruction, and that’s what this is all about. We work with many countries in Europe and Asia supporting that. So, today, I’m talking to Todd DeVoe, and that’s pretty much the extent of what I have to offer, so… thank you.

[TODD] That’s awesome. I got a story, I think you’ll appreciate this. So, I get this tag, and I was a core man with the Navy, and it’s like… I get this tag to go with this mission, to do with the Landing Force Supports team, the LST group, and I guess we’re going to make a bomb go out there, something to create around that area. So, we get picked up by some CH-53’s and they take us out there, and fly on the lake, and we land in the middle of this area. I look at my sergeant, and I go: hey Gunny, where’s the lake? And he goes to me and says: Todd, you’re standing in it. I was like: oh my God. So my first introduction to China Lake was standing in the middle of a lake that didn’t have any water in it, so…

[INTERVIEWEE] There’s actually water in that lake! Not very often, but sometimes it gets water.

[TODD] So, ok. So, awesome! You did a lot of work with the Navy obviously, and the best branches of the service that you could ever go into, so the guys know out there. I did my boot camp in Great Lakes, so when you talked about Great Lakes, there was a little flashback there for me, so I’m definitely on that side of the equation of the boot camps. So, for you guys that are listening, when I went in the Navy, and I went in in 91, we had boot camp in Orlando, Great Lakes, and in San Diego. And today, everything is in Great Lakes. They kept the best boot camp area open, so… you know…

[INTERVIEWEE] I have a question for you. I checked into my first mobile unit, in Hawaii, in the latter part of 1990, very early 91, and while I was up there… I was there for about 3 years, and once time my lawn mower broke, so I went over to the place over MWR, where you lend lawn mowers, and I said: hey, I’d like to lend a lawn mower, please. And the nice gentleman behind the… fell behind the counters, looked through his records, and said: you haven’t brought back the last one! And he says: yeah, Todd DeVoe, you had a lawn mower for a year now, we need to get that thing back! And I was wondering, if you’ve ever been in a station in Hawaii.

[TODD] No, sir.

[INTERVIEWEE] So, there’s another Todd DeVoe out there with a new lawn mower.

[TODD] It’s funny, my brother is in the air force, and he gets called into the office by his CO, and he goes: hey, you haven’t paid your child support. My brother is 18 years old, he was like: I don’t even have any kids! You know, so they had to find another Richard DeVoe walking around, not paying child support. But my poor brother!

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah, I bet he was really wondering there for a few minutes.

[TODD] He’s like: what? Oh, man. So, Twisted Aspen, how did you get… I had to ask this question, because… I read your company profile, and when I saw Twisted Aspen on there, I was like: how did he get that name?

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah, the last part of the contractor’s working on Navy Madison, the contract actually went for a company I was working for called Cubic. Excuse me. Camber. The Camber Corporation. And when the contract left, I was taken on by another company, called Native Hawaiian Federates. And they were offering me, like, a lot less than I was making at Camber, so as negotiations, they said: well, how about we just pay you $10.99, so you can set up your own company or whatever, and we’ll pay you and voice you through that? So, I was talking to my CPA, and she says: yeah, do it right now! The first thing they asked was: what’s the name of the company? What are you gonna call it? Well, we had some property here in Colorado, that’s a family trust, down in Custer County, a whopping 4,000 people in the whole county; it’s very beautiful. It’s on the Crystal Mount ranch, and we call that the Twisted Aspen Ranch. So, just on the top of my head, I said, well, let’s call it Twisted Aspen consult. And that’s how I got the name. I get asked that quite a bit, believe it or not.

[TODD] That’s cool. And just a side note too, I know that you did some woodwork, and it’s called Twisted Aspen too, so it’s cool that you were able to tie in both things.

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah, it’s kinda like, everything I do has a twist to it.

[TODD] That’s really cool. So, we brought you on board here today, because you know, obviously, we’re in emergency management, we’re always up and down with our stuff, but one thing that’s always constant is training, cause we’re always training for the Big One out here in California, which would be the earthquake, and they’re always training for the Big Hurricane in the South, in the Southwest, and tornados in the Midwest, and what not. I said hurricanes in the Southwest, I meant South and Southeast. And so… the training exercises. Tell me a little bit about how you go about in developing your training and exercises for municipalities, or states, or whatever contractor that you bring up. What is the process that you go through?

[INTERVIEWEE] Well, you know, I could talk for days on it. You know, in a macro sense, the first thing I do is, of course, I identify the requirements. What’s the need? What’s the mission? You know, what is it that you’re really supposed to be doing? When you work with learning development, or we call it, training and exercises in the military, that’s really key. Because once you know what the requirements are, then you have a good idea of your state. Seems like everything else, just kinda falls in line. Well, how do we get there? Well, of course, we had some milestones to achieve on the way, but those are very… two very key things. And the military, they’ve done something very, very wonderful. Much more inclusive than what I found in our civilian counterparts. We work with what’s called a J Medal. The J Medal is a joint mission essential task list. And that’s the governing directive that we have, and it’s broken down in other services, like you have an N Medal for the Navy, and the army has their version, of course the Air Force does too; every task, just about every task in the military, is broken out into a mission essential task. And those are communicated through standard conditions and measures. You have a standard to meet, and the conditions or the influences, like… maybe operating at night time, or in any kind of weather, cold or hot weather, desert, jungle, so on and so forth; then you have your measures, of how well you can do it. We use that as a baseline when we’re developing a training plan for anybody. And I found that identifying the requirement, as you mentioned a while ago, can be brought over in any aspect of your life, even personal. You know, maybe you’re changing something around your home, or your lifestyle, you know? Understanding the requirement really helps that, and I think that although it can look complicated and daunting at times, those two points are huge in getting started in any training and exercise, or learning development program.

[TODD] Yeah, that’s… that is essential for sure, with the requirements. I know that here we have done some training… specifically, we are doing the… UICE grants, and we have purpose that we have to do, and there are guidelines that we have to touch to make that training essential. I think sometimes, when we’re putting training on, that we forget that we’re training not only for the upper brass, but we’re also training the core guys out there on the field. And I think sometimes, there’s a disconnect between some of the training that we put on, and say… the officer, or the line firefighter, you know, who’s standing in the middle of the parking lot, going: what the heck are we doing here? But I’m getting paid overtime, so I’m not gonna complain. You know, how do we make training that’s gonna be engaging for those guys, as long as making those check boxes that we need to do to be core essential training for the UICE grants, or the ENPG grants and stuff like that?

[INTERVIEWEE] Well, you know, I think… well, there’s actually phases of training. You have the initial training, your basic training, where you’re learning something new, where you’re bringing a new team together, you wanna see how they work together. Basically, well, getting back to the basics. And then once you mastered the basics, you get to a certain level of confidence, and what often happens, what I see a lot, is that training really takes a lot of time on any force, specially any operational force, whether it’s public safety, or military, or even corporate. It’s just… it’s hard to find time to train sometimes, and as such, it falls along the lines. When you’re up to a certain level of your capability, and you don’t have what we call sustainment training to reinforce that, those skills slowly kind of drop off, and they deteriorate. So, after the basic training, keeping a schedule of sustainment training, and that’s just refreshers for people that are in the trenches working, or even the planning staffs, it goes the whole chain of command. I think it’s very important to have that sustainment training, especially if your job is cyclical. And when I say cyclical, I mean that is recurring. Emergency management, and often times in military arena, we don’t have the luxury of learning from day to day OGT, because the disasters are so frequent, attacks are so frequent. We have to practice those, and we do that through exercises, what we call homeland security exercise and evaluation program, that’s what supports that. That’s a standard that pretty much everybody on the country works on today, either military and civilian, or local government. So, if you can plan around your basic and sustainment training, and once you’ve gone through what your training plan has to offer, readjust your documents, your instructions, the guides that help you, recipes, and start over again. Because those routines that you build, even though some people may say: gosh, I’m bored with this, I know it really well, I can do this in my sleep; that’s really where you want to be. Especially… what I believe is, when you’re working with situations that don’t routinely happen. Say you’re a secretary, or a manager in an office, or in a warehouse… your job, you’re doing every day. So, you get really good at that. And as you see things, you know, that you can improve on, you just do it. In the emergency management field, we don’t have that luxury, so we have to train, and the more training you can do, the better off you will be.

[TODD] Yeah, I agree there. I think… I guess in the military, we train and we train, and we train like we’re gonna play, and when the thing happens, it becomes second nature. I’m fortunate that I was… I did a lot of emergency management in Orange County, California, and we had a nuclear power plant down the street from us, and that actually made us train twice as much. Every two years, we were graded by FEMA on how the county reacted to the potential nuclear meltdown or whatever. And so, that made us… we did a training every year, based upon this. So, one year was a non-graded exercise, and next year, was graded. And we actually helped out as well with Diablo Canyon, in our station up in San Luis Obispo. So, a lot of us would go up there and help out with evaluation and what not. But what that did for the county, is that kept us… everybody on their toes, I think that’s why Orange County does the wild-land fires, and floods, and those other disasters pretty easy. So, outside of that, you know… how do you… do you recommend having like, a year out, two year out, three year out, five-year plan for you training exercises? Or do you see… what would you recommend for a plan that way, or how do you recommend setting up your training schedule?

[INTERVIEWEE] Well, I think ideally, that’s… 3 years it’s kind of a model. We’ve been talking about a 3-year training plan, and in my experience, I’ve been doing training for many, many years… 3 years is kind of that goal number, you know? You’ll have new people coming in, people move to other jobs, or retire, and move on, you know? So, you get in that cycle, and 3 years just happens to work well, you know? And again, as a standard, across the nation, it’s easy for your training plan to duck tail into someone else’s in the industry.

[TODD] Yeah, I agree there too. We do a lot of joint training… I mean, when I was doing stuff in Orange County, we do a lot of joint training, because we’re such a small county; there’s only 34 cities, jurisdictions that way, and including school districts, and water districts, and what not, there are 34 jurisdictions. LA County, 88 cities, you know, so it’s much larger. I don’t know now… I don’t think I’ve ever heard of LA County doing training with every single city being involved. They may have, I might be speaking wrongly here, but… do you see more regional training being more the way to go, or do you still think it should be individual jurisdictions training, or… you know, because I know for sure, that in Orange County, we do a lot of stuff regionally, and even our responses are regional. I was unfortunate that… I was involved in a mass shooting, and we had, I think, I wanna say within 3 minutes of the shooting, I think 4 jurisdictions were there, within that time period. You know? So, we have to play that way, because we’re so small, as far as cities close together. What do you think about that? As far as regional training based vs individual training?

[INTERVIEWEE] Well, you know, when you look at it, individual training and small unit training, whether you’re in the fire department, or the police department, emergency management staff, or the emergency operation center; whatever, law enforcement. It’s really critical that you know your basic skills, so… in the sustainment training, you really need a piece that’s gonna give the individual that. How he or she operates with their own equipment? And of course, within a team environment. But, you can’t lose sight of the fact that you really need to train with your strategic partners as well. Especially if you’re in an emergency management plant, your EAPs, include other jurisdictions for… you know, for the event of the crisis. It’s really critical that you work together ahead of time, in whatever capacity you can, but ideally, practicing what your major concerns are, in the area that you’re in. So, I wouldn’t give specific weight to either of them, other that they both are very important. If you’ve ever been to a conference, and you’ve been maybe in the area for a little while, and you look across the room, and say: hey, there’s Bob, from that other organization, I haven’t seen him all year, I’m gonna go say hi, you know? And then you have a little discussion. There’s a lot of value to be said of that, when you show up to a real crisis and Bob is there, and you’ve already worked with Bob, you know how he thinks, and you know how he works, so that strategic part is very, very important, as well as the basic training for the individuals in small units, I believe.

[TODD] Yeah, I’m there with you as well. I really do believe in making those partnerships, and… you know, the saying is: you never wanna trade business cards in the middle of a disaster.

[INTERVIEWEE] Exactly.

[TODD] It’s a little motto that we stick with. All right. Ok, so… big question here, and… two, I’ve got two of them. One is, in the military, we have task and purpose. Excuse me. In the military, we have task and purpose. And I like to ask emergency managers and people in our industry, what do you think your purpose is, which means, your top 3 things that you think are important to you, in the field of emergency management?

[INTERVIEWEE] Well… gosh, that’s a great question, Todd. I think… my core has three very good ones, and the one I’m gonna talk about first, is learning. And I consider myself a lifelong learner. When I got out of the Navy, I took advantage of the GI Bill, and ended up with a graduate degree in homeland security, and that’s great, but gosh, it doesn’t stop there! I like every day to pick up magazines and articles. I’m a little bit older, so my sleep habits are a little different, I get up quite early, and I spend my time learning new things. Not just in this field either, things that are really dear to me, but… very critical in our field is to continuously learn the new things that are coming out. Readdress, go back and revisit the old things, keep your basics sharp too. So, for me, learning is huge. And it can be done very comfortably. I know some learning environments that I’ve been in the past, maybe weren’t run very well, or weren’t thought out very well, or planned very well, and it was kind of uncomfortable. So, what… you know, making a learning environment as comfortable as possible really… I think it adds a lot of value, too. Secondly, I think planning. Planning is critical. And I think most of us have heard that old: plans are great until the first shot is fired, then everything changes. But boy, you really can’t get around planning. We need those documents in place, the instructions, the standard operating procedures, so that everybody understands what’s expected of them, and what’s expected of you. I think the better you do that, and you keep that a priority, I think the better off you’re gonna be. But you also have to practice it, you can’t just write something, get it on the shelf, and expect to pull it off the shelf, and… you know, at the last minute, when there’s a crisis. You need to practice those things. Now, thirdly, I think leadership is huge as well. The leadership comes from everywhere, it comes from the bottom of the chain of command to the top. And what that is, is motivating people to move and do things right, and work in a comfortable environment. If people are afraid of making a mistake, and getting punished for it… gosh. That’s some things that we do in practice and trainings, so we don’t make mistakes in a real crisis, but good leadership will prevent a lot of that. It really, really, creates an environment, an atmosphere, that has a lot of value to training everyday life, as well as crisis. So… I think those are the three that really are important to me.

[TODD] That’s some really good stuff. Learning, planning, and leadership. I like that a lot, and again, I kind of agree with you on those areas, man. That’s… if you can master those three things, you’re gonna be a great… you will do great in this field. Ok, so last question, and it’s kind of… what are your… what’s the best book that you’ve read, or that you like, or that you give away to somebody new in the field, either on leadership or emergency management?

[INTERVIEWEE] You know what? I have been working right on it. It’s my bookshelf, give me just a second. Ok. Hang on just a second, it was here just a minute ago. It’s… it’s a handbook for emergency management. You can google it: “Handbook for Emergency Management”, it’s… it’s a well-known book, and I think they’re in the 14th revision, if I’m not mistaken… McGraw Hill, excuse me… McGraw Hill, “Homeland Security Handbook”. It’s real thick, it’s a hard copy, the one I have. It’s part of my graduate studies. But when you’re talking about homeland security, that’s an umbrella over everybody. It’s for military, law enforcement, public security, fire department, local volunteer firemen… everybody is governed by them, and it’s really written very well, and anybody in the industry would have a section here that covers them, and it’s really good value. I have it open all the time. And again, that’s McGraw Hill, “Homeland Security Handbook”.

[TODD] Awesome. And I actually have that book too.

[INTERVIEWEE] I think you’ll agree, if you’ve been around the field long enough, to know that’s… you gotta have it on the show.

[TODD] That’s for sure.

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah, definitely, definitely. Well, that’s a good question, thanks.

[TODD] No problem, this has been a lot of fun. So, Todd… before we leave, I just wanna make sure that you have the ability to kind of… tell people about your business, and how to get in contact with you, if they’re interested in learning more about training and exercises, and the other things you do, too. You don’t just do training and exercises, but that’s what we’re focused on today. So, how can we find you?

Todd W. DeVoe, Twisted Aspen Consulting
Todd W. DeVoe

[INTERVIEWEE] Well, my phone number, 303 704 27 97, or I have a website, twistedaspenconsulting.com, I am a service disabled veteran, and I’m on business, so I have that ability to… although it’s not certified through the PA to do business directly with the PA, they have certain certification processes for that. But go to my website, twistedaspenconsulting.com, I also have a Facebook Page, same name, and Todd… excuse me, twdevoe@twistedaspenconsulting.com, it will give me an e-mail right to me… and you know, if there is any interest, and any faction of emergency management… I’ve probably been involved with in the past, but I would love to help you out, specifically training and exercises, or learning and development. I’ve had a better experience with that. So, I appreciate the opportunity to plug all that, Todd, thank you.

[TODD] All right. No problem. And just for everybody, in case you guys missed it, you don’t have to rewind and try to find exactly where it is. We’re gonna put this information down in our show notes as well, so you can always just click on the bottom show notes there, and his links to Todd’s consulting firm and everything else will be there too. And you know what, Todd? I’m actually going to put your link to your woodworking company there as well, because you make some beautiful woodwork too.

[INTERVIEWEE] Well, thank you very much. That’s a small business I have to fill in the cracks in between teaching, so… both passions of mine. I love to teach, and I love to work with wood. Thank you.

[TODD] No problem, sir. All right, it was great having you.

[INTERVIEWEE] I appreciate it.

[TODD] And we’re clear. Cool, awesome. That was great.

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah! It was fun, thanks.

[TODD] Are you still there? There you go.

[INTERVIEWEE] Hey, can you hear me?

[TODD] Yeah, I got you.

[INTERVIEWEE] Ok. Hey, where are you from? Are you from California?

[TODD] No, I’m from New York, originally, so…

[INTERVIEWEE] Ok. There’s a lot of DeVoes up there. Do you do any genealogy by any chance?

[TODD] Well, Debbie… my sister Debbie, you talk with her a lot on Facebook. She does a lot of genealogy stuff, and so… I know that… we’re from… basically, the Saratoga Springs area, that’s where our family kind of comes from. And so… before that, I guess there’s some dude that came from Canada, down from Montreal, Quebec area, something like that. And he came down, and ended up in Saratoga Springs, for whatever reason. And the whole family kind of migrated that way.

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah, there was a Captain Jack DeVoe, in Nova Scotia, in… about 1880-ish. He ran a fleet of fishing boats on Nova Scotia, and you might be maybe hooked up with them in some way. He was just a… he was a hard ass, he just made everything happen. I read a little bit on him. There was… there were some DeVoes that came over, not on the Mayflower, but when the Vanderbilt’s came over to found New York, New Amsterdam at the time, there were some DeVoes that came over with them. Even though the name is French, some people think it’s Dutch, but it’s actually French. But they… they started a farm, what is now Harlem, New York. So, if you ever go to Harlem New York, some of the churches have graveyards that go way back, and you can see some of the founding members, but yeah. The town of Harlem used to be the DeVoe farmland.

[TODD] Oh, wow!

[INTERVIEWEE] I wouldn’t be surprised if you were… you know, related to those guys, possibly.

[TODD] My mother’s side, Thyers, they came over on the Mayflower. My sister got that, and she’s actually joined the Mayflower Society, or whatever, and then… on that side, my great-grandfather, great-great-great… whatever, how many greats are there, he’s actually the one that was the first Headmaster of the West Point. So… that’s all on my mother’s side. So, I have a huge history back in New York.

[INTERVIEWEE] Wow, yeah! I wanna go back there sometime, and kick around some of those little churches. I’ve been doing the genealogy on the DeVoes for… gosh, 20 years. I got a big page at Ancestor.com, you know… so you should take a look. You might see some names that you recognize.

[TODD] Well, tell Debbie! If you’re gonna go back there, and she has… she has a house up on the Hudson River, I’m sure she would love to spend some time with you guys over there, and you guys can chit chat a little bit about the ancestor stuff on Facebook. She’s a great lady, she’s my sister, so I have to say that, I suppose. But realistically, she’s a wonderful person, so.

[INTERVIEWEE] Is it Deborah? It’s my wife’s name, Deborah DeVoe.

[TODD] I know! It kinda makes me laugh. Can our lives parallel even more? Same name, navy, EM…

[INTERVIEWEE] Are you sure it wasn’t your lawn mower?

[TODD] I was never stationed in Hawaii.

[INTERVIEWEE] I’ve only met three Todd DeVoes: you, me, and some black guy that used to play football. As a matter of fact, he played for Denver Broncos.

[TODD] Oh, yeah! Yeah! He was born in…

[INTERVIEWEE] When? Yeah, I guess he’s not as good as he started out to be, he’s up in the Canadian league now, but when I retired my uniform was camouflaged, and I took one of my old blouses with my name on it, and I put it in a box and sent to him, like: hey, how about you send me a jersey? And I never heard of him. Not even a letter, a thank you, or anything. A phone call… but…

[TODD] Yeah, people sometimes, they get stuck on themselves. That was funny. Oh man, so when you go over to Europe, keep your head down, brother.

[INTERVIEWEE] Oh yeah. We’re gonna be in a pretty… it’s a pretty safe place, you know? It’s the Eastern side of the country. Russia is basically supporting some Ukraine separatists, you know, some rebels, and it’s just along the Eastern places. It’s miles from where I’ll be, but… looking forward to it. I was in Moldova last year, that’s one of their neighbors, between Romania and Ukraine, and I loved that, that was a fantastic trip, so I’m looking forward to this one too.

[TODD] And hey man, if you need any help doing any training, let me know, I’d love to play!

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah, likewise! Let’s stay in touch, this was fun.

[TODD] Yeah.

[INTERVIEWEE] You know, it’s like I’m talking to myself, and you actually answer.

[TODD] Yeah, when you said: I’m talking to Todd DeVoe, I said, no, I’m not talking to myself, I’m talking to the other guy.

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah. When he hooked up on Facebook, one of my former mates said: hey, how did you make friends with yourself? I don’t understand it! Well, thanks again, buddy!

[TODD] Yeah, and let me know when you get home from Europe, and we’ll touch base, and… you know, maybe we can… actually, you know what? It would be kinda cool, when you get back, let me know and let’s talk about what you guys did over there.

[INTERVIEWEE] Yeah, absolutely! Love to!

[TODD] Ok, yeah, that would be great. All right, see you later.

[INTERVIEWEE] Take care, brother. Bye!

Links

https://www.linkedin.com/in/todddevoe/

twdevoe@gmail.com

http://www.twistedaspenconsulting.com
https://sites.google.com/twistedaspenwoodworks.com/home
Show Sponsor
Show Sponsor
Show Sponsor
Show Sponsor
Show Sponsor

Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.